127 replies to this topic

[slice slice baby]

You two are going to be fun to read.

[dawgbone]

Will Play....you do understand that all your references to impropriety on LCC's part are merely unsubstantiated accusations. If you have proof of wrong-doing, bring it forward or simply stop spreading rumor and pointing fingers like a gossiping old hag. So, the challenge lies before you. (And if living in a trailer while still owning a home in one's original school district is "actually living in the school district", then I'd like to introduce you to a lot of "transfers" who "rent apartments" in other school districts for the purpose of playing sports - it's been going on for ages, by the way to "cheat the system" without breaking any rules).

Your arrogance lies in the fact that you think everyone on the planet shares your opinion. For those who agree with you, I suggest that they join you in supplying evidence of wrong-doing before you throw the cheating label around. In other words, (for the uneducated), put up or shut up.

By the way, the girls volleyball team will be playing for a state championship on Saturday. Congratulations!!

Edited by dawgbone, 08 November 2007 - 10:20 PM.

[OhioDog5]

I am also from Grove and here is my point of view.I think it is clear that LCC has an advantage in football over eveyone else, and (in my eyes) there is no argument that can convince me otherwise. You have a much larger "talent pool" than everyone else, to me that is obvious but I know you T-Birds disagree with me, and that is fine. that is what is great about rocketcorner, we can all post our opinion. Here is the thing for me though....look at Ohio, and even the United States. ..and tell me this doesnt happen all the time. I remember when we went to state in basketball two years back. A majority of the schools were private or had transfer's come in and make a big difference. Look at our state title game. South Webster's best guard transferred from Ironton who the previous year went to state. He thought the cupboard looked a little bare and wanted a title so transferred to South Webster. Look at cincy north college hill. OJ mayo and Bill Walker came from different STATES to play there. It happens all the time everywhere. The thing is it used to only happen in big cities and never affected the little NWC. For me personally, being from Grove, this all of a sudden just came out of nowhere and was a shock because it never affected us. We play that team from South Webster and naturally get angry because we have to play a team who has a Very Good basketball player transfer in. Then it starts happening at LCC with them getting a few new players that did not originally go to LCC and now there beating us. I think it was never a concern because it never affected us. But now this problem has hit the local area and is affecting Grove and the NWC and naturally we get upset. You atleast have to understand a little why our small town is mad about this! While I dont agree with the LCC football program and how they are getting new players these past few years, I have to say..until there are rules/regualtions/private play-offs/or anything else, LCC has the right to continue what they are doing. It is happening all over the state and to single out the Birds is unfair. Now am I taking your side, no, im just saying I can understand your defense and agree everything you are doing is within the rules. I also agree it does happen everywhere else.
Another point..... I think other sports programs at LCC are taking an unfair hit for this. To my knowledge, I may be wrong, but I dont think any other program has the number of "transfer's" or new players whatever you want to call them, coming in every year. I think the football program, IMO, is making all the other programs look like they get new players too.
Also I would like to say congrats to the Birds on the big volleyball win.

----Just think when Laughing Eyes gets on here and see's this thread. Put on your helmets, it could get ugly!!

Edited by OhioDog5, 08 November 2007 - 11:34 PM.

[OhioDog5]

Cant I hate both lol??

[OhioDog5]

In all seriousness, Im happy LCC is doing good in the sports department. Really there is only one person(coach) that I(the whole town of Grove lol) dont like, and I think we all know who that is!! But thats a whole different issue and lets not get involved in that. I personally enjoy these conversations and hopefully they can stay respectful and semi-courteous!!
By the way- when does the LCC volleyball team play for the title?

[Will Play for Pay and/or Glory!]

I'm honestly too tired to read it all tonight fellers. I'll only opine that by the scan of the responses it appears we are back to tit for tat. As I've said I'm not really into doing that right now. I've done it plenty and may take time to cut/paste or rehash counterarguments again from other threads...but what is the point? None of this stuff is new...no rules were broken, they all do it, etc. You will never convince me that your accomplishments are legitimate as I will never convince you that your actions are wrong. I only post to give my viewpoints and to take people out of their comfort zone with respect to the subject of athletic transfers (pretty much the only subject I participate on...as it is the only subject that motivates me to type). I'm pretty sure I've anticipated your responses quite accurately in my original post...but do hold out hope that there might be something convincing that I've missed in my sleepy state. If I get time to read tomorrow and can find an original argument or point of view from any of you...I'll certainly respond when I'm better rested.

Please note that I'm aware that as part of LCC-fan's defense coping mechanism they have convinced themselves (or pretend to have convinced themselves) that it is only a small minority of sport fan who looks down upon their program. While I might opine that such denial is as silly as trying to convince us that your volleyball coach and fans don't really care about their reputations at all...I'll grant a little friendship twig.

The typical LCC-fan simply may not know the extent of their reputation as most people tend to practice "if you don't have something nice to say"... Therefore the typical T-bird may not know the extent of their stench...as it relates to accepting other school's athletes (troubled or academically inclined). I myself would never cause conflict in a personal conversation with anybody from LCC unless and until irrationally provoked...and I'm as harsh a critic of athletic transfer abuse that I know. There are times and places for such debate...and we are there. However, confusing this manners-related nicety as evidence for maintaining clear-conscience for no wrongdoing is simply not a thought or action based in reality. Your closeness to the Thunderbird's disqualifies your ability to accurately judge the level of disdain for which your actions inflict. Safe to say that out-of-ear-shot, a typical conversation about LCC among NWC competitors is not a complimentary chit chat. Transfer abuse and the C-word (cheating) are the norm.

Now I'm not pompous enough to extrapolate my numerous experiences with sport's discussions and declare my experiences to represent the majority viewpoint (though I freely admit I've hunch that many agree with my general sentiment)...but will indeed chuckle at the counter-argument which paints the opposition as merely a few uneducated Grove fans. While we've certainly no way to scientifically poll the prevailing attitude concerning LCC's loose athletic acceptance policies, common sense dictates my attitude is certainly not unique. Of course common sense would dictate that your volleyball coach actually cares about his reputation...and we know how LCC-fan is spinning that one!

[clarett_fan2003]

OhioDog5...

Good posts and thanks for the support in the tournament.

However, there is one thing that I'd like to point out. While I'll be the first to admit that LCC has benefitted from the help of a couple transfers the last couple of seasons in Good, Bowers (who initially transferred TO Grove), and Ruggley. But the thing that goes unnoticed is that LCC has also lost it's only DI prospects during that time as well in Jamhiir Williams and Ryan Nathan. Both of them transferred to public schools, and when you transfer from private to public you don't have to sit out a year AND don't have to get clearance from the superintendant. You get a free pass to leave. On the other hand, when transferring from public to private, a student must get clearance from the previous school's superintendant to play the next season. So in actuality, the people who have the authority to decide whether these transfers can play at their new school have nothing to do with LCC. From LCC's standpoint, they see a student who's going to pay tuition and bring in more money. They could care less if the student is an athlete, can play right away, or whatever the case may be. That's why they take in students each year who don't even play athletics.

I know we're never going to see eye to eye on this, and that's fine. That's a part of sports. I just wanted to point out that while LCC has gotten some help from some transfers lately, they also lose as much they gain because of the same reason. In fact, it's only been recently that LCC has even come close to gaining from transfers athletically what they lose.

[mrclutch]

You can't tell me there aren't advantages here --- the makeup of non-public schools in the state volleyball tourney is too overwhelming. I believe 7 of 16 is the number. Its not just football. Its not just boys sports. Numbers don't lie.

[dawgbone]

"If you build it they will come."

Will Play...so, as LCC was getting transfers for many years and losing, why was that not a problem? Why is it only a problem when they win? When Jerry Cooper came to LCC, he in essence inherited the exact same team as the previous coach left. He took that team to the Regional Finals in the amazement of the entire Lima community. The difference? Perhaps a coach who got them to buy into excellence and hard work? If boys then decide they want to play in a successful program for a proven coach (I know you hate him now, but you sure loved him when he was on your sidelines), they're released by their superintendent, they're willing to abide by the standards that LCC proposes, and nothing was done to break any rules, where is the cheating that you have verbally accused?

My suggestion to all those who are in dismay of athletes leaving their school is to build a program and a school that no one wants to leave. As Clarett fan points out, LCC lost plenty of student athletes over many years. Did they get on forums and cry foul? No, instead they tried to better their situation with the hiring of a coach who has instilled an attitude of winning in the boys. Have there been transfers since he came? Yes. Were there transfers before? Yes. In both directions; leaving and coming in. The problem? LCC is winning now. I was taught to congratulate people on their accomplishments; not tear them down to make myself feel better. I was taught to step up my game if I wanted things to be better; not throw mud at people who beat me.

[Will Play for Pay and/or Glory!]

I don't know how many times I have to say I'm not interested in tit for tat this time. It is old news. Look up gum and I's last debate...or go back further. It has all been argued, counter-argued until we are blue in the face. LCC-fan and LCC-detractor will simply never agree.

My participation in this thread was to take a new approach. For arguments sake I was willing to play along and pretend that LCC has absolutely no fault whatsoever...and that their sullied reputation was a big misunderstanding. This indeed is the point of view of the most extreme of LCC-supporters...which far as I can tell makes up the preponderance of those participating these days. I figured a thread about the unfair treatment of an LCC volleyball coach, complete with said coach's participation and parental/fanatic support...and with a supposedly "home-grown" volleyball team making a tourney run...was a decent opportunity to point out how LCC's sullied reputation affects their own innocents...who really benefit not-at-all from the shenanigans associated with your football program. So given a free pass for debate purposes to posses that moral high ground of deniability for all wrongdoing...what are you left with?

LCC still has a sullied reputation!

Even as you've convinced yourselves that it is undeserved and unfair...it is what it is! Even should you be granted complete intellectual immunity for your transgressions...your stuck with your reputation.

I merely opine that the very tactics I predicted, and are on full display here...will do nothing to change your reputation. You simply do not change sullied reputations by blaming everybody else and attempting to bring others down to your level. You don't change reputations by arguing legal loopholes. It is simply not a redeeming quality to deflect criticism of your own shortcomings by belittling others. If I grant you that Grove should have never played Bowers (they probably should not have by the way)...what does this do to change LCC's own actions? The fact is (whether fair or not), Grove is not the program with the reputation problem. Nor is any of the other NWC school. This is simply LCC's burden to bear alone...for the Lima-land area. If your best hope for maintaining whatever fragile reputation you believe you posses...involves implementing a "misery loves company" strategy...safe to say there is good chance you may not know how this public relations thing works.

You change reputations and public perception by being contrite...sometimes you simply have to bite your tongue. It is a tough and humbling lesson the likes of which Pete Rose and Barry Bonds have still yet to learn. Stubbornness and pride can often blind those who are too close to the situation to take corrective action that might actually work, rather than continue the same path of deniability, deflection, and acting obstinate. I'm not really asking for LCC-fan/coach/etc to actually eat humble pie to correct their reputation as I'm aware that such humbling experience is difficult. I just illustrate that there is an alternative approach available to constantly belittling other programs, feigning stone hearts, calling detractors uneducated, hiding behind rules while ignoring rule intentions, etc. Repentance is available as the public indeed is a forgiving bunch for those willing to take a few humbling steps.

Knowing that stubbornness, deniability , and deflection are the tools of choice in dealing with the reputation problem...I've demonstrated how strict adherence to these coping mechanisms actually end up hurting your own. Like it or not...fair or unfair...reputations have ways of dragging down innocents. As an outsider, I cannot fathom that LCC's own have not stepped up to question the events/policies/actions that have lead to the continuance of the sullied reputation. I would think that somebody would have demonstrated the strength and courage to challenge the group think mentality and possibly point out some of the stuff I've discussed on this thread. But I'm guessing my outsider status makes me incapable of understanding the intrinsic reflex action to deny and deflect. In this sense, I'm as incapable of understanding Thunderbird reaction as the LCC-faithful are of understanding the depth of their reputation problem. You have to be there to understand...they always say!

[OhioDog5]

LCC still has a sullied reputation!

As an outsider, I cannot fathom that LCC's own have not stepped up to question the events/policies/actions that have lead to the continuance of the sullied reputation. I would think that somebody would have demonstrated the strength and courage to challenge the group think mentality and possibly point out some of the stuff I've discussed on this thread.

I can't really see anybody doing that when your winning. It would be hard to do so if you experience success in a sport where you were normally not that strong. Who would want to ruin that. I also think its interesting that the only time we played a transfer was when Jerry Cooper was coach. And the only time we had a transfer come in to simply play football for Grove when Jerry Cooper was coach. Is that just coincidence, hmmm

[slice slice baby]

So in keeping with my reputation of picking with my Columbus Grove friends I ask this question......how many of you clowns on here were one of the 9 write in votes for Bogart for mayor?

[flounder]

So Gummy..........



Who is this Bosco character.......does he live in the area!!!!!!!!!!!!!!