91 replies to this topic

[dhsdawg06]

This to me is not a "I'm pro Defiance so they're right" thing, it's a consistency thing. To the question about if I'd be alright with a ticky-tack foul knocking someone out of the game....that depends. I'd rather not a ticky-tack foul be someone's FIRST foul, so no I'd rather not see that. But if they had been calling the same thing a foul all game and were consistent? Fine by me. And the ridiculous question about "what if this had been Lillard's 5th foul?" So be it. I'd really hope a kid with 4 fouls would realize he's got no room for error and not do something that's explicitly stated in the rules as a technical foul.


Look, I'm all for letting kids be kids and letting kids play. And if they HADN'T called this a technical, I wouldn't have lost any sleep. We would have most likely lost, but oh well. Wouldn't have diminished the season any, I would have congratulated Central Catholic and moved on. Just like Central Catholic did after the call WAS made. I just hate seeing refs call 2 different games depending on the time left and the situation. If the game's been physical all night and a lot of stuff has been let go, by all means let it go in the final minutes too.

I'm just flabbergasted that this has actually made national news(except I shouldn't be, cause it's ESPN which will milk ANY controversy for everything it's worth, whether it's a controversy or not). Personally, I'm just ready to move on. It's baseball season now.

[Bluetiger76]

veteranlefty, on 31 March 2015 - 02:05 PM, said:

ESPN had a link posted with the video and took a poll....I have not checked today but yesterday with 20,000 fans polled 78% thought it was a bad call. This is nationwide so the people had zero rooting interest.

Yeah and years ago 99% of the population thought the world was flat.

Edited by Bluetiger76, 31 March 2015 - 02:58 PM.

[Rd2Glory]

Bluetiger76, on 31 March 2015 - 02:01 PM, said:

Yep... and infractions are infractions, regardless if its the beginning of the game or the end of the game. The Cleveland coach's response tells it all. If he is not arguing the point....why are others?

"Infractions are infractions" - really groundbreaking analysis right there. The problem in this situation is that the technical is a complete judgment call. This isn't a player stepping out of bounds and fans arguing that the ref shouldn't have called him out of bounds at that point in the game or something like an ineligible player playing. Because there is judgment involved, the "an infraction is an infraction is an infraction" argument doesn't really hold up without further analysis. If the refs called everything that could be considered a foul, starting lineups would be fouled out by half time on a regular basis - yet, apparently posters on here would be okay with that because, for example, "the defender contacted the ball handler more than once with the same hand and THAT is an infraction" (Rule 10-6-12).

I understand (and agree with) the "refs shouldn't call the end of the game differently than the beginning" argument, but that's not really applicable here in my opinion for two reasons: (1) That argument is more pertinent when discussing fouls, three seconds, etc. where the "infraction" actually affects the game play and the score - this type of call is in place for player safety and to discourage gloating, and (2) The refs didn't call a technical foul for hanging on the rim earlier in the game, so any speculation that they would have is just that, speculation.

Is it a good rule? I think so.
Did the player break that rule? In my opinion, yes.
Was it a "good" call? For the aforementioned reasons, I believe that answer is a resounding NO.

Defiance had a great team this year and they earned the state championship. There are a lot of "bad" calls in every basketball game, and that T was certainly one of them, but that's basketball, and that's sports, and that's life. I don't think it takes anything away from Defiance's championship (they were still down 2 after the call and won it in overtime, after all).

[Rd2Glory]

dhsdawg06, on 31 March 2015 - 02:50 PM, said:

This to me is not a "I'm pro Defiance so they're right" thing, it's a consistency thing. To the question about if I'd be alright with a ticky-tack foul knocking someone out of the game....that depends. I'd rather not a ticky-tack foul be someone's FIRST foul, so no I'd rather not see that. But if they had been calling the same thing a foul all game and were consistent? Fine by me. And the ridiculous question about "what if this had been Lillard's 5th foul?" So be it. I'd really hope a kid with 4 fouls would realize he's got no room for error and not do something that's explicitly stated in the rules as a technical foul.


Look, I'm all for letting kids be kids and letting kids play. And if they HADN'T called this a technical, I wouldn't have lost any sleep. We would have most likely lost, but oh well. Wouldn't have diminished the season any, I would have congratulated Central Catholic and moved on. Just like Central Catholic did after the call WAS made. I just hate seeing refs call 2 different games depending on the time left and the situation. If the game's been physical all night and a lot of stuff has been let go, by all means let it go in the final minutes too.

I'm just flabbergasted that this has actually made national news(except I shouldn't be, cause it's ESPN which will milk ANY controversy for everything it's worth, whether it's a controversy or not). Personally, I'm just ready to move on. It's baseball season now.

This is part of my point in my previous post. According to the reasoning of a lot of posters on here, "as long as its consistent," isn't the issue. Those arguing "it's in the rules so it's a good call," HAVE to be okay with a ticky tack foul being called even if it ISN'T consistent, because, after all, "a foul is a foul."

[Bluetiger76]

Rd2Glory, on 31 March 2015 - 03:07 PM, said:

This is part of my point in my previous post. According to the reasoning of a lot of posters on here, "as long as its consistent," isn't the issue. Those arguing "it's in the rules so it's a good call," HAVE to be okay with a ticky tack foul being called even if it ISN'T consistent, because, after all, "a foul is a foul."

This is a good point, and I for one am fine with the ticky tack foul....if its a foul. A foul is a foul.

To eliminate the dunk hoopla......they just need to get rid of the rule. It is most likely outdated.

[Bluetiger76]

Rd2Glory, on 31 March 2015 - 03:03 PM, said:

"Infractions are infractions" - really groundbreaking analysis right there.

Glory...I don't think I have been snotty to anyone, I was only simplifying the point.

I do think if the rule is there you HAVE to call it. But I also think you just get rid of that particular rule. Debate ended?

Edited by Bluetiger76, 31 March 2015 - 03:17 PM.

[Rd2Glory]

Bluetiger76, on 31 March 2015 - 03:14 PM, said:

Glory...I don't think I have been snotty to anyone, I was only simplifying the point.

I do think if the rule is their you HAVE to call it. But I also think you just get rid of that particular rule. Debate ended.

You're right. My apologies, that was jack*** way to start out my post.

That said, I think it's clear that there are 2 schools of thought in this thread:
(1) "A foul is a foul, and anytime one is called, that's fine (so long as it actually is against the rules)"
(2) "A foul is a judgment call, and consistency, situation, etc. should be considered."

Clearly, you fall in the first camp, and I fall in the second. Neither one is necessarily "right" or "wrong," but it is unlikely that anyone is changing anyone else's mind.

[erniefurgler]

If anyone thinks he was avoiding injury by hanging on the rim is outta their mind. Watch the vid...he dunks, swings upward and pulls himself up, then drops. He made no attempt to look down & see if anyone was below him. Tough call to make, especially in that situation, but by the refs judgment (and every foul is just that- a judgment call by a ref) it was excessive.

[Bluetiger76]

Rd2Glory, on 31 March 2015 - 03:19 PM, said:

You're right. My apologies, that was jack*** way to start out my post.

That said, I think it's clear that there are 2 schools of thought in this thread:
(1) "A foul is a foul, and anytime one is called, that's fine (so long as it actually is against the rules)"
(2) "A foul is a judgment call, and consistency, situation, etc. should be considered."

Clearly, you fall in the first camp, and I fall in the second. Neither one is necessarily "right" or "wrong," but it is unlikely that anyone is changing anyone else's mind.

No problem Glory.....To sway me to the other side you would have to explain to me where the line is drawn on when you make a call and when you don't? Each official's opinion differs and that is the tough part for me to digest. You know what I'm saying?

[charliesheen]

Rd2Glory, on 31 March 2015 - 03:03 PM, said:

Is it a good rule? I think so.
Did the player break that rule? In my opinion, yes.
Was it a "good" call? For the aforementioned reasons, I believe that answer is a resounding NO.

This sounds like everyone's argument when it comes to this call....and makes absolutely no sense!!!!! It's a good rule, the kid broke the rule....but it shouldn't have been called???? That's a ridiculous statement.

[Rd2Glory]

charliesheen, on 31 March 2015 - 03:45 PM, said:

This sounds like everyone's argument when it comes to this call....and makes absolutely no sense!!!!! It's a good rule, the kid broke the rule....but it shouldn't have been called???? That's a ridiculous statement.

1. It's a good rule to have in place because hanging on the rim can lead to injuries and is generally done in order to gloat (note that there is an exception that your ARE allowed to hang if there are players under you or for your own safety). I think that injuries and excessive gloating are bad (or bad for the game). Thus, I think it is a good rule to have in place.

2. The CCC player, in my opinion, hung on the rim. The hang was not for his own safety or anyone else's (again, my opinion). Thus, he broke the above rule.

3. Despite the fact that it is generally a good rule to have in place and that he broke it, I don't think it should have been called at the end of a close game in the state championship. A cautious/player-safety call of that nature has no place at the end of that type of game. If you're going to essentially call a T on a player for gloating at the end of a close state championship game, it better be excessive, or at least obvious. This was not close to either, in my opinion. Again, this was not type infraction that affects game play or the score in anyway whatsoever.

There are TONS of infractions that go uncalled/unnoticed every single game, and to call one at the end of a game like that is a bad call. For example, it is an infraction to have your jersey untucked. I think a lot of people (including me) think that is a reasonable rule, but if a player was made to sit out at the end of a state championship game because of it, there would be an uproar (rightfully so). According to your perspective, however, "it's a rule that you have to tuck in your jersey, his jersey was untucked, he should sit out the last play of the state championship" <-- Now THAT is a ridiculous statement!

Edited by Rd2Glory, 31 March 2015 - 04:33 PM.

[Rd2Glory]

Bluetiger76, on 31 March 2015 - 03:27 PM, said:

No problem Glory.....To sway me to the other side you would have to explain to me where the line is drawn on when you make a call and when you don't? Each official's opinion differs and that is the tough part for me to digest. You know what I'm saying?

I get what you're saying and don't expect to sway you. I guess if I were to draw a line, the first place I would start is "in the last quarter of a close state championship game, a warning needs to be given before a technical foul is called for any rules infraction that does not involve game play." Now, where the blurred line of "close" falls is up for debate, but I would err on the side of caution in that case (I think most would agree that this game fell into the "close" category.)

[Teddy Malone]

veteranlefty, on 31 March 2015 - 02:05 PM, said:

ESPN had a link posted with the video and took a poll....I have not checked today but yesterday with 20,000 fans polled 78% thought it was a bad call. This is nationwide so the people had zero rooting interest. ESPN show Around the Horn also showed this and discussed it yesterday and famous columnist Bob Ryan said it was a brutal call the ref should have his license revoked....other national reporters on the show agreed with him. The kid did linger on the rim a bit but IMO I did not think it warranted a technical foul either. Nobody was harmed or in danger and I seriously doubt that any Defiance players took it as bad sportsmanship towards them. I just think to call that it has to be extremely excessive and I did not feel this merited such a call.

Like I keep saying, I bet more than 78% of the people in that poll and the guys who talk on ESPN don't follow high school sports at all and know nothing of the rule differences between high school and college or pro sports, so whatever they say means nothing to me. In high school ball you simply can't grab the rim and lift your lower body like that or they will cal a technical. I don't know what the basis is for the rule when the rules were made but that's the way it is.

[Ericles]

Rd2Glory, on 31 March 2015 - 04:24 PM, said:

1. It's a good rule to have in place because hanging on the rim can lead to injuries and is generally done in order to gloat (note that there is an exception that your ARE allowed to hang if there are players under you or for your own safety). I think that injuries and excessive gloating are bad (or bad for the game). Thus, I think it is a good rule to have in place.

2. The CCC player, in my opinion, hung on the rim. The hang was not for his own safety or anyone else's (again, my opinion). Thus, he broke the above rule.

3. Despite the fact that it is generally a good rule to have in place and that he broke it, I don't think it should have been called at the end of a close game in the state championship. A cautious/player-safety call of that nature has no place at the end of that type of game. If you're going to essentially call a T on a player for gloating at the end of a close state championship game, it better be excessive, or at least obvious. This was not close to either, in my opinion. Again, this was not type infraction that affects game play or the score in anyway whatsoever.

There are TONS of infractions that go uncalled/unnoticed every single game, and to call one at the end of a game like that is a bad call. For example, it is an infraction to have your jersey untucked. I think a lot of people (including me) think that is a reasonable rule, but if a player was made to sit out at the end of a state championship game because of it, there would be an uproar (rightfully so). According to your perspective, however, "it's a rule that you have to tuck in your jersey, his jersey was untucked, he should sit out the last play of the state championship" <-- Now THAT is a ridiculous statement!

This is one of the things about this whole situation that bothers me. The stage in the game should have NO bearing on whether or not this is called. Why is four minutes to go in the 1st quarter of the state semifinal a more "appropriate" or "legitimate" time to make this call than one minute to go in the 4th quarter of the championship? You can't insert subjectivity and pick and choose when you blow the whistle.

[effingA]

That call didn't cost CCC the game... They still could have won in regulation if they would have defended better. They could have won in OT if they scored better.

It was the right call on the biggest stage that HS sports has. I applaud the official for having the stones to make the correct call.

[Coach]

According to the voting on ESPN it was a bad call. 70+% to 20+% think it was horrible.

[FlightCrew]

Ericles, on 31 March 2015 - 09:33 PM, said:

This is one of the things about this whole situation that bothers me. The stage in the game should have NO bearing on whether or not this is called. Why is four minutes to go in the 1st quarter of the state semifinal a more "appropriate" or "legitimate" time to make this call than one minute to go in the 4th quarter of the championship? You can't insert subjectivity and pick and choose when you blow the whistle.

Officials should know the situation just as you can't give a guy his 5th foul and something ticky tack.

[Hagen]

FlightCrew, on 01 April 2015 - 07:47 AM, said:

Officials should know the situation just as you can't give a guy his 5th foul and something ticky tack.

Why not? Players are given 5 fouls. Is it a ref's fault if the player had 4 hard fouls in the game to put him/herself in a position to be fouled out? Also, I know officials often don't know/care how many fouls a player has. That's not their duty to monitor. It's the book and teams' duty. A foul is a foul. Whether early or late, most coaches agree that if a ref has been consistent throughout the game, it's on the player for not adjusting. Swallowing a whistle is just as bad as calling a questionable foul because it benefits that team.

[charliesheen]

FlightCrew, on 01 April 2015 - 07:47 AM, said:

Officials should know the situation just as you can't give a guy his 5th foul and something ticky tack.

Officials have no responsibility to know or keep track of how many fouls a player has....to think they would or would not call a foul based on how many fouls a player has it ridiculous

[FlightCrew]

charliesheen, on 01 April 2015 - 09:08 AM, said:

Officials have no responsibility to know or keep track of how many fouls a player has....to think they would or would not call a foul based on how many fouls a player has it ridiculous

They know.