152 replies to this topic

[dawgbone]

Oh, boo hoo. It's not fair!! (Insert foot stomping here) Just give everyone a trophy. Pretty soon championships won't mean anything because we'll all have to take turns passing the championships around from school-to-school each year to "Be fair".

If this thing was a school levy, the public would be yelling, "We've already voted it down!!! Stop putting it on the ballot!!" But, it appears that the crybabies will not be silenced. I think I'm beginning to agree. Pass one of these stupid things so the foot-stompers will have nothing to stomp about anymore. At least until they realize that it probably won't make a hill of beans worth of difference.

[cs59]

The public private debate will be ongoing even if the new " competitive balance " proposal is accepted. One bad thing about the private schools at the state tourney is that most of them have little fan support which hurts the tourney as a whole. Fans don't relate to schools when they don't have connections to the teams & players as families do in public schools. 9 of 16 at state this year were private schools & attendance was very poor. LCC & VASJ final was lowest attendance of the day with both schools about equal. Harvest Prep & St. Thomas Aquinas set a record for low attendance w/8000 total. Upper Arlington saved the day with their huge group of fans in both of their games.

Edited by cs59, 25 March 2014 - 09:31 AM.

[Dman]

dawgbone, on 24 March 2014 - 05:39 PM, said:

Oh, boo hoo. It's not fair!! (Insert foot stomping here) Just give everyone a trophy. Pretty soon championships won't mean anything because we'll all have to take turns passing the championships around from school-to-school each year to "Be fair".

If this thing was a school levy, the public would be yelling, "We've already voted it down!!! Stop putting it on the ballot!!" But, it appears that the crybabies will not be silenced. I think I'm beginning to agree. Pass one of these stupid things so the foot-stompers will have nothing to stomp about anymore. At least until they realize that it probably won't make a hill of beans worth of difference.

Oh boo hoo... Don't change the rules. How will we keep getting our trophies if we're not allowed to stretch our borders? (Insert foot stomping here)

I am always amazed when the whining pusses want to call out other whining pusses. :-D

[Dman]

cs59, on 25 March 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

The public private debate will be ongoing even if the new " competitive balance " proposal is accepted. One bad thing about the private schools at the state tourney is that most of them have little fan support which hurts the tourney as a whole. Fans don't relate to schools when they don't have connections to the teams & players as families do in public schools. 9 of 16 at state this year were private schools & attendance was very poor. LCC & VASJ final was lowest attendance of the day with both schools about equal. Harvest Prep & St. Thomas Aquinas set a record for low attendance w/8000 total. Upper Arlington saved the day with their huge group of fans in both of their games.

You just made the strongest argument for separation. In states where it is done, the private tournament is almost always (always?) the less attended event. There just not interest in these AAU type programs...

I fear that those who believe the competitive balance proposal will not change a thing, might be right. But in the big picture, they are trying to ward off a separation vote. They have been hiding and ducking since 1993. At some point you have to pay the piper...you would think?

From the public perspective, one would have to think they would look at Upper Arlington...and at least think about the monetary situation.

[XMAS]

Upper Arlington saved the day with their huge group of fans in both of their games.

this is great for the OHSAA but shouldn't be used in a debate about attendance.

I drove two hours to Columbus, parked about half the distance away from the Schott as is U A school district, and two hours back home, plus they had a primetime game.

[Bob Costas]

bob22, on 22 March 2014 - 02:47 PM, said:

Thanks to Norwalk the Poland coach looks like an even bigger d-bag.

I'm not one to use that to describe Poland's Head Coach, but yes, in hindsight, it made him look really bad.

If one wants to maintain a losing mentality on how life sometimes can be unfair, you lose. If you take what you have to work with while having an excellent attitude about it, you win. Congrats to Norwalk for going down to Columbus, drinking everyone's soda, leaving the cans all over the place, and trashing the furniture in the process no matter the odds.

[Stewart Little]

A simple solution:

If a private school is within 390 miles of a Division I school, then one must assume that the private school recruited player(s) from that school, therefore the private school MUST be placed into the DI tournament.

Draw a cirlce, with a radius of 390 miles, around the private school and determine the largest school within that circle....when tournament time rolls around, private plays in the same division as that largest school!!!!

Simple solution.

[Dman]

Bob Costas, on 25 March 2014 - 02:11 PM, said:

I'm not one to use that to describe Poland's Head Coach, but yes, in hindsight, it made him look really bad.

If one wants to maintain a losing mentality on how life sometimes can be unfair, you lose. If you take what you have to work with while having an excellent attitude about it, you win. Congrats to Norwalk for going down to Columbus, drinking everyone's soda, leaving the cans all over the place, and trashing the furniture in the process no matter the odds.

I know there are too many threads to follow all the information...but Norwalk's coach is a big supporter of the competitive balance proposal if earlier posts are to be believed. When the guy charged with the "excellent attitude" is supporting the cause of the guy who supposedly has a "loser mentality"... I don't know how that "looks bad"... It looks to me like Norwalk coach completely understands where Poland's coach is coming from.

Edited by Dman, 25 March 2014 - 05:02 PM.

[Dman]

Stewart Little, on 25 March 2014 - 03:10 PM, said:

A simple solution:

If a private school is within 390 miles of a Division I school, then one must assume that the private school recruited player(s) from that school, therefore the private school MUST be placed into the DI tournament.

Draw a cirlce, with a radius of 390 miles, around the private school and determine the largest school within that circle....when tournament time rolls around, private plays in the same division as that largest school!!!!

Simple solution.

Even more simple. Give teams in the lower division the option to play higher. This would at least demonstrate who really believes in the "hard work" theory and which teams were really seeking the easy trophy.

Edited by Dman, 25 March 2014 - 08:15 PM.

[paperboy]

Dman, on 25 March 2014 - 05:01 PM, said:

When the guy charged with the "excellent attitude" is supporting the cause of the guy who supposedly has a "loser mentality"... I don't know how that "looks bad"...

Here's how he looks bad...

coach Grisdale said:

“We have the best Division II public school team in Ohio,” Grisdale said.

Public Norwalk beat the team that beat the seemingly invincible out-of-state all-star SVSM squad. Thus Poland is clearly not the best Division II public school team in Ohio...

[Dman]

I concede that the one sentence is in poor taste. But when so many, including Norwalk's coach, are singing his praise, or at least supporting his cause... I don't know that he's going to lose any sleep about what the 17%ers have to say. In so many circles, this guy is looked at with great respect. It is expected to those who disagree with his opinions...would try to exaggerate some supposed embarrassment...from one sentence.

Nobody is talking about Norwalk returning to Columbus next year. Everybody just assumes SVSM
will be back. The reasons for this have nothing to do with traditional program building, hard work, etc. We have just seen that Norwalk has all those areas covered. The only benefit they are missing is border stretching.

Poland's coach nailed that phenomenon. He did so with assertiveness and humor. My hunch is most people remember those qualities of his outburst...not the one sentence...

How awesome it would have been to see Poland and Norwalk play in Columbus. There certainly would have been a lot more tickets sold. Due to border stretching and bad seeding luck...Poland was denied that opportunity. We got stuck with a poorky coached AAU team. I would think that most realize he nailed the comments about coaching discrepancies...

...they're probably different opinions on that too!

Edited by Dman, 26 March 2014 - 10:06 AM.

[Bobby]

Dman, what if this passes and nothing changes? The same teams keep winning. Are we good? More changes? What's the end goal?

[waterloowonder]

Bobby, on 26 March 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

Dman, what if this passes and nothing changes? The same teams keep winning. Are we good? More changes? What's the end goal?

If this passes, very little will change. Some teams right on the upper border of their divisions might move up 1 division. VASJ, ASVSM, LCC will not move up. The goal should be get big city (private or public) schools out of the small school divisions. Back in the 1940's and early 1950's divisional assignments were based on the size of the community, not necessarily the enrollment, and the divisions were not split equally. In 1950 their were approx. 1,200 high schools in the state. There were 2 divisions and 800 played in class B (small schools) and 400 in Class A (big schools).

[FlightCrew]

They still have one state champ in Kentucky.....
No matter what your size, enrollment, public or private...

They get to a Sweet 16 and play it out in 4 days.
I vote for that!!!!

[Bob Costas]

Dman, on 25 March 2014 - 05:01 PM, said:

I know there are too many threads to follow all the information...but Norwalk's coach is a big supporter of the competitive balance proposal if earlier posts are to be believed. When the guy charged with the "excellent attitude" is supporting the cause of the guy who supposedly has a "loser mentality"... I don't know how that "looks bad"... It looks to me like Norwalk coach completely understands where Poland's coach is coming from.

One complained. The other asked his team where to hang the championship banner prior to their game with THURGOOD MARSHALL. A simple testing of the fruits and/or the results speaking for themselves should suggest we can relax about Coach Gray regarding competitive balance.

[Dman]

Bobby, on 26 March 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

Dman, what if this passes and nothing changes? The same teams keep winning. Are we good? More changes? What's the end goal?

It prevents a split for a while. Puts a mechanism in place to affect change...

But if you are happy with declining attendance and the same recycled border stretchers playing to empty arenas... You could vote no.

The whole basis of the system is 1950's based. I would like to think an update could be beneficial...

But the ultimate endgame is fruitless for all of us when high school sports ceases to exist and everything goes private club (see little league baseball in many areas).

In the meanwhile we could at least hope to TRY and come up with a system where border stretchers and traditionalists co-exist.

Or we can pretend that because Crestview won that St. Joe's, Harvest Prep, LCC, SVSM won't be back next year...and the system works as intended.

Tier I border stretchers make Columbus 3 out of every 5 years. The next level uses it to get there once and then disappear for decades. Norwalk wins it one time...and is facing a retiring coach, and multi-generations before sniffing a return. The general fan has no clue how hard it is for a traditional programs to even make it these days.

You can look at status quo and determine that I'm a wuss for daring suggest there is a better way for seeding these teams. I get that. I look at the border stretchers with the same criticism...as I am incapable of understanding how winning a tournament in which every important variable is stacked in someone's favor...is somehow that big a deal. LCC and St. Joe.s should have won DIV III. They had the best players. Others have already debated how these small division high schooll programs obtained their COLLEGE Div I talent. Border stretching is almost always at least PART of that phenomenon.

It really comes down to who you think should get the benefit of the doubt. I would prefer a system where the vast majority of teams get the breaks versus status quo. Where the same Tier I border stretchers game the system again and again.

Edited by Dman, 26 March 2014 - 04:48 PM.

[Bobby]

Dman, I'll ask again. If it passes and nothing changes, what do you want to happen next? What is your ultimate goal?

[whatdoiknow]

He continues to complain. On and on and on

[dawgbone]

"Border stretching" is becoming the term of choice.....define it, please. Does this also include open enrollment? Statewide open enrollment? If not, why not?

[paperboy]

dawgbone, on 26 March 2014 - 10:54 PM, said:

"Border stretching" is becoming the term of choice.....define it, please. Does this also include open enrollment? Statewide open enrollment? If not, why not?

Apparently it's like ######ography - he knows it when he sees it.