152 replies to this topic

[Dman]

The crowds are already down. Multiple reasons and threads about that phenomenon...

I will guess that the boys from Poland would have much better memories of a trip to Columbus versus losing to some future NBA stars from the tri-state area.

No doubt that high school sports, particularly basketball are on the decline in deference to the AAU model. There is no stopping it. But it doesn't have to be endorsed either.

The OHSAA is trying and has tried its best to make it work. But if the members keep ignoring sentiments expressed by this coach via voting down measures like the competitive balance proposal...?

Remember that in 2013 we almost had the "split" vote. Only the proposal got that vote off the ballot.

The spirit of Ohio Basketball died right around the time the tournament moved to the Schott. Most of this stuff is just us old farts longing for what never will be again. I still feel bad for those Poland kids. I think that somewhere along the line the ADULTS...who should have known better and had the nut-sack to speak like this coach...for the better part of the past decade...FAILED miserably. The current system awards bad behavior and punishes good. And too many adults have the attitude that..."anything goes" to win that trophy. Is it any wonder that so many schools openly whore themselves out as basketball factories given the fact that nobody calls them out for poor behavior on any grand level?

Even this coach is taking crap from other adults for dare speaking the truth. Everyone knows EXACTLY what SVSM's is about. And it is not about educating the little children. It is about winning basketball games. And if they have to piss on every other community and the spirit of every rule designed to level the playing field...that is exactly what they will do.

There was a time when public shame would have forced a school like SVSM's to do the right thing and play within the spirit of the rules. That was a long time ago. Today, there are many who celebrate this stinky turd. In the spirit of St. Patrick's day I wish them nothing but diarrhea and syphilis (the adult enablers...not the kids). :-D

War Poland!

[titanman01]

lima ball,

So you're saying basketball will be too boring to watch if the private schools aren't there, you have got to be kidding me. I thought the purpose of attending these private schools, in your particular case LCC, was religion, academics and sports was just a plus....guess I was wrong, you already have thoughts of shipping your kids all over the country for basketball. I guess my question would be, what about the kids who aren't good enough to travel the country because there are a lot more of them than the truly elite players. I guess according to your theory we would find out which kids are really in these private schools for religion and academics. I'd love to see that play out.

Edited by titanman01, 17 March 2014 - 02:22 PM.

[paperboy]

Dman, on 17 March 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

Is it any wonder that so many schools openly whore themselves out as basketball factories given the fact that nobody calls them out for poor behavior on any grand level?

My but aren't you a dramatic one, lol. I'll give you SVSM only because of the extreme circumstance of having 4 'non-Ohio' players. But still - what do we really know about their situation? How do we KNOW they aren't from Ohio? Because Poland's coach says they aren't? SVSM's coach says the guy doesn't have his facts right. But anyway, I'll give you them, just to show I'm not going to defend all of these schools at all costs.

But how about Berlin Hiland, Ada, Elida, and the rest you mentioned? What were the circumstances regarding the 6'9" transfer that went to Hiland? Did the coaches go out and 'get him? Or did he know Hiland kids and decided to transfer to play with his friends? Same with Ada and Elida - were the schools actively involved in getting these kids to transfer? If the kids come of their own volition, what can or should a school do to stop them?

[Dman]

There is a proposal on the table to address all those situations. It failed a year ago. Who knows what will happen this time.

[FlightCrew]

lima ball, on 17 March 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

IF they split in a years the private schools will start to play an AAU type schedule and travel the country (early in the season) and surrounding states later in the season. Basketball may still be competitive, but the crowds will be way down at high school games because they are so boring to watch. You may still have some good small town/community basketball games but vey few of those kids will be playing in college after high school. Which allows kids now the opportunity to say remember when we played Lebron in the tournament and almost beat them. Or Roger Bacon who did beat them at state? that opportunity will be GONE, I bet many of the kids on that Roger Bacon team tell their story each time they watch him play and will be for many years to come. When Lebron is inducted into the Basketball Hall of Fame one will be telling their grandkids, "when I was in high school we beat him for the state title."
The new story will be everyone I knew had a state title because people complained about how it wasn't fair that the same schools were good all the time, people thought they may have possibly recruited.

I'm totally with you on this. I live in a district that has a public school and multiple state titles...we've managed..,.IF they split it public/private, I will no longer attend.

[effingA]

I can tell you Ada has NEVER pursued any kid. This has been bantered about by the likes of Dman for years...
Yeah, they've had transfers and so they get lumped into Dman's offender programs.
Ada has also lost kids to other schools...

[Dman]

I think the point of the competitive balance proposal is simply to find a better (?) means of classifying the teams. So we get exactly what the name of the proposal says. In its 4th rendition it sounds like they have ironed out the crazy stuff to make these accusation/defense debates obsolete. How a player breaches a boundary is irrelevant. Instead the proposal concentrates on assuring the advantages gained from expanding boundaries is somewhat offset in the bracket classification considerations.

The privates get mad that the publics aren't illuminated and the publics get mad that they are included in the same topic as the privates. I just think a lot of people would like to see SOMETHING done to address the issue.

Those who still hold out hope for indefinite status quo should understand that the movement for separation of the public and privates...which I certainly don't want (but could tolerate) has not gone away. The OHSAA got them to voluntarily withdraw that proposal last year...and some say played a little dirty pool THIS YEAR to dampen the signature drive.

It is in almost everyone's interest (except mid to large DIV I) to see one of these competitive balance proposals pass BEFORE they get the "split" proposal up for a vote. Every time it fails makes it a bit tougher to fight off the "split" crowd.

[Irish Viking 87]

Dman, on 17 March 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

There is a proposal on the table to address all those situations. It failed a year ago. Who knows what will happen this time.

From talking to people from different schools, I've been told that a big reason it failed was the attendance numbers were wrong for a lot of the schools. That has been taken care of, so most look for it to pass. Haven't been able to confirm it(but I trust my source) was told that most if not all of the WBL voted against it last year because of this.

[Mr Bearcat]

titanman01, Unfortunately that theory goes out the window, when you don't have to Catholic to go to LCC. So in theory LCC has open enrollment, and now vouchers.

[Dman]

I had read a link earlier today that said SVSM's AD is on board. But we heard stuff like that last year at this time too. Who knows...?

[Bobby]

Mr Bearcat, on 17 March 2014 - 08:47 PM, said:

titanman01, Unfortunately that theory goes out the window, when you don't have to Catholic to go to LCC. So in theory LCC has open enrollment, and now vouchers.

Being Catholic is not a requirement for admission at any Catholic school. Never has been, never will be. But all students at Catholic schools, Catholic or otherwise, are required to take Catholic religion classes, etc...

[effingA]

How would any administrator know how they're going to vote when all the information has not been presented yet? It only addresses 6 sports and says there will be "modifying" factors... WTF
I still find it dubious to penalize schools that bring in open enrollment students with some of the districts in our area only miles apart.
Should DJ go up a division because they had those 2 FJ kids come in 8th grade? Not that occurred but that's how stupid it is.
Don't know what the "modifying" factors will be but until you do, how could you vote for it?

[Dman]

It's already out there. Run a search...and read until your heart's desire. I think Jefferson should be treated like every other school... But hypothetically...how tall are these kids and do they have handles? :-D

I thought two years ago..the socio-economic and tradition factors were crazy. Last year they got it right. A few minor tweaks have been made...but anyone familiar with last year's proposal doesn't need Nancy Pelosi telling us..."We've got to pass it to see what's in it."

Here is a pretty good description from the Dayton Daily News...

http://www.daytondai...proposal/nd5k9/

The proposal — based on the previous school year’s numbers — will be used to determine the divisions in which teams will be placed for their respective postseasons. It’s a numerical formula that uses three factors:

• Education Management Information System number. This is a value that all primary and secondary schools are assigned by the Ohio Department of Education. It’s a combination of demographics, attendance, course information, financial data and test results.

• Team rosters will affect a school’s EMIS number. Each student who participates in those sports — ninth through 12th grades — will be assessed a numerical value based on whether or not that student started in the school district in the seventh grade.

• Finally, the residential/custodial status of a student’s parents; specifically, if they reside in the school district or not and for how long.

Previous voted-down proposals also have included “socioeconomic” and “tradition” factors.

Also tweaked from last year’s proposal was a non-public schools residential factor. Previously, schools would be hit with a higher multiple factor if a private student-athlete resided outside the designated public school attandance zone in which the private school is located.

Feedback from some Lima, Canton and Columbus school districts indicated that their go-to parishes and main feeder schools were outside those predetermined areas and would unfairly count against them.

If passed, private schools could pick their public school districts in which most of their students come from.

Edited by Dman, 17 March 2014 - 10:35 PM.

[Ericles]

Dman, on 17 March 2014 - 04:44 PM, said:

I think the point of the competitive balance proposal is simply to find a better (?) means of classifying the teams. So we get exactly what the name of the proposal says. In its 4th rendition it sounds like they have ironed out the crazy stuff to make these accusation/defense debates obsolete. How a player breaches a boundary is irrelevant. Instead the proposal concentrates on assuring the advantages gained from expanding boundaries is somewhat offset in the bracket classification considerations.

The privates get mad that the publics aren't illuminated and the publics get mad that they are included in the same topic as the privates. I just think a lot of people would like to see SOMETHING done to address the issue.

Those who still hold out hope for indefinite status quo should understand that the movement for separation of the public and privates...which I certainly don't want (but could tolerate) has not gone away. The OHSAA got them to voluntarily withdraw that proposal last year...and some say played a little dirty pool THIS YEAR to dampen the signature drive.

It is in almost everyone's interest (except mid to large DIV I) to see one of these competitive balance proposals pass BEFORE they get the "split" proposal up for a vote. Every time it fails makes it a bit tougher to fight off the "split" crowd.

This I agree with. I think that more people than we'd care to admit won't be happy until the split becomes reality.

[Coach]

If it hadn't been for Soccer!

[waterloowonder]

This proposal will not accomplish what it needs to do unless it effectively moves big city private or public schools playing in lower divisions to higher divisions. Example: Africentric, Harvest Prep need to be D-1 or D-2. SVSM, Villa Angelo St. Joe, Roger Bacon, Watterson need to be D-1. LCC should never be D-4, and I think D-2 is more appropriate. Delphos St. John should not be in the smallest school division for any sport. This is all based on the total population area they draw students from. It has nothing to do with feeder schools they draw from. I think private schools are great, and serve our communities well, but don't tell me they don't have a big advantage by attracting student athletes from large population areas. Open enrollment is not an equalizing factor, especially in the rural areas. I would like to see specific examples of what this new proposal would have done if was implemented for this year before making a final decision on whether it is right or not.

[lima ball]

lima ball,

So you're saying basketball will be too boring to watch if the private schools aren't there, you have got to be kidding me. I thought the purpose of attending these private schools, in your particular case LCC, was religion, academics and sports was just a plus....guess I was wrong, you already have thoughts of shipping your kids all over the country for basketball. I guess my question would be, what about the kids who aren't good enough to travel the country because there are a lot more of them than the truly elite players. I guess according to your theory we would find out which kids are really in these private schools for religion and academics. I'd love to see that play out.

----------------------------------------------------------

Titanman
This is a sports Website correct? I will talk about sports on this website, if there is a site to discuss education we can battle back and forth on that site about education, but the I feel the numbers speak for themselves when you look at the school report cards.

Just stating that if a split happen, the better players will be playing on teams who travel more and play better competition. Thus turning the better teams into the "minor league" to colleges.

Edited by lima ball, 18 March 2014 - 10:43 AM.

[Dman]

"I would like to see specific examples of what this new proposal would have done if was implemented for this year before making a final decision on whether it is right or not."

The OHSAA typically puts examples up on their website soon after the basketball tournament.

I can give you an example of what the current system does. The kids from Poland worked their butts off from elementary school to high school. They lived in Ohio and had a dream of playing for the Ohio State Basketball Championship. They were certainly good enough to make it to Columbus with the talent that they had. This, of course, assumes that the Playing field is somewhat level. Those dreams were dashed by a team fielding four starters who didn't even reside in Ohio two years prior. A team with an AAU coach with a history of players moving in and out like a Division III college.

Do I even need to discuss the fact that the rural Division III programs might have as well quit playing after the regular season this year?

I do not understand the line of reasoning that the system must be perfect before we vote for it. This system, regardless of faults, is a step in the right direction. The times have changed. The system needs to change with the times. The days of looking at a school's overall enrollment and determining that this is a fair means putting teams in competitive brackets is laughable. People do move. Schools do recruit. Some schools get lucky, and have transfers move in without any active recruiting at all. It is in this reality that we must design a system that makes these brackets more fair.

Excuses are off the table, starting with last year's proposal. Everybody is treated the same. The privates get to pick their own geographic location with this year's proposal. It really is time to put up or shut up.

Nobody can sit here and tell you that this proposal is "right." But it is certainly better than status quo. This is true for everybody except the mid to large Division I schools, and those schools who currently benefit from the inequities available in an antiquated system...like every non division I program near a population center with the means and willingness to either recruit, and/or accept wanting athletes.

For every dastardly example you can give of some hypothetical wrong that could come of this proposed system, I can guarantee you that we will come up with five worst examples with status quo. Perfection is not achievable. But we can certainly come up with a better system...and they have.

Edit to add...I agree with most your take waterloo...that one sentence struck a nerve.

Edited by Dman, 18 March 2014 - 11:05 AM.

[Mr Bearcat]

Bobby, I understand that, but it makes no sense!

[bob22]

ADog, on 16 March 2014 - 04:30 PM, said:

I can't offiially comfirm but reading other sites, 4 of the 5 starters moved with thier familes from WV and Pa, but live in Akron area now so guess it would be legit

People are allowed to move where they want in this country for whatever reason they want.