167 replies to this topic

[waterloowonder]

Some comments and observations regarding this recent development:

I generally like it even though it doesn't address one of the biggest issues, the fact that public schools have to take non producing students that private schools don't take or accept.

The purpose of this proposal is to rightfully classify schools that draw students from high population areas. It will keep the LCC's, DSJ's. Africentric's. CVASJ's ,big city Christian Schools, etc. from competing in D4 basketball or D6 football. I can't see it resulting in having schools move up more than one division even though the arguement can be made that VASJ & Africentric should move up 2 based on the very large areas they draw from.

If I am reading this properly, and using LCC as an example: Assuming LCC has 30 boys on its Freshman, JV and Varsity basketball teams, and assuming that 15 of them don't live in the Shawnee School District, their enrollment for Basketball classifcation purposes will be increased by 75, which would probably move them to D2. Again, this is just a guess, but it will have a definite impact.

Having gone to a school since you were in first grade has nothing to do with the purpose of this proposal. The purpose of this is to rightfully classify schools for athletics based on the population area they draw students from.

This stands a good chance of passing. The biggest reason it may not pass is that some school administrators won't want to mess with reporting needed to administer it.

[Bobby]

waterloowonder, on 24 March 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

The purpose of this proposal is to rightfully classify schools that draw students from high population areas. It will keep the LCC's, DSJ's. Africentric's. CVASJ's ,big city Christian Schools, etc. from competing in D4 basketball or D6 football.

Seriously???

[Maltese Falcon]

waterloowonder, on 24 March 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

Some comments and observations regarding this recent development:

I generally like it even though it doesn't address one of the biggest issues, the fact that public schools have to take non producing students that private schools don't take or accept.

The purpose of this proposal is to rightfully classify schools that draw students from high population areas. It will keep the LCC's, DSJ's. Africentric's. CVASJ's ,big city Christian Schools, etc. from competing in D4 basketball or D6 football. I can't see it resulting in having schools move up more than one division even though the argument can be made that VASJ & Africentric should move up 2 based on the very large areas they draw from.

Let me first say that I am in favor of this new system being explored by the OHSAA.

The exception I have with your post is that most private schools don't reject students. Heck, the vast majority of private schools are actually losing enrollment and want to bring on more students ( some even go as far as to advertise). Since tuition is the schools main source of operating revenue.

Also Africentric is technically a public school (in name only). It is part of the Columbus city schools and does not charge tuition.......the real crock is that you have to be "selected" to go there.......so the school can control enrollment.

[Bigbrownman]

All of the opponents of this are stating small, petty, specific examples of why this shouldn't pass or what should be changed about it. If they start adding crap like " if you went to school there in K-3 then you're exempt," it's going to be so watered down that it won't make a difference.

All the pissing and moaning about how the new rule isn't fair to that one kid who doesn't go there for sports is going to ruin the entire proposal and, like I said, by the end we'll end up with a pointless proposal that isn't even worth putting on the ballot because it won't make a difference.

[Dman]

You honestly don't see the problem with allowing schools to draw their own athletic boundaries? If you allow LCC to draw an athletic boundary inclusive of the area that fits their current transfer allocation... then every school will want the same exception.

Over here in Delphos..our physical building sits in the extreme west portion of the district. We would like to include Van Wert in our athletic boundaries so we to don't face a multiplier on as many posdible athletes we can get our hands on there too.

The fact that LCC would like to have their boundaries cross multiple school districts is the very reason the multiplier is appropriate for LCC. Every school would love to pull athletes from multiple school districts. Those who DO...have a distinct athletic advantage that this proposal is trying to mitigate.

You might think that LCC and their faithful would appreciate their good fortune to pull so many kids across so many borders...? But it seems they want to label this equalizer (multiplier) a punishment. It is not a punishment. It is an equalization tool to try and form fair and competative classifications.

Perspective again... LCC may stay in III...or god forbid move up to II. We are really supposed to think moving LCC to II is a punishment? Are we saying LCC can't compete with Bath and Elida? I thought LCC was looking for tougher competition...?

I am not buying that line of reasoning. LCC will be just fine with this proposal without already asking for special exemptions. At least let it play out...

Whether they are a III or a II their students will have access to a fine private education and continued access to some of the most competitive athletic programs in the state. There is no doubt in my mind that LCC would be one of the state's DIV II powerhouses IF that is where they end up.

I'd argue that this system with them moving to II is better than status quo. Currently a great percentage of sport's fans respect LCC's athletic accomplishments as much as VASJ's state title. I don't necessarily think that is fair. But it is reality. This proposal gives them cover in the sense that they can now point to the multiplier every time somebody turns their nose at a T-bird accomplishment. It erases the "shadiness" inherent in the current system. That is of course unless LCC sneaks in the dark to get special boundaries drawn just for them. Do that and... "same old LCC." Always looking for any advantage to win a trophy.

I say this is the perfect opportunity for LCC and their faithful to put up or shut up. We have heard long enough about how their success is from "working harder." I too think that is a part of it. We have also heard about their quest to seek tougher competition. Here is their chance to prove those are more than empty words.

I must admit I'm a bit discouraged that a group who has a reputation for talking such a tough game is whining so hard about a possible move to DIV II before even seeing how they might fare there. But then again... those boys, adults, and fans from VASJ demonstrated no shame yesterday too...

Edited by Dman, 24 March 2013 - 10:06 PM.

[Rd2Glory]

Dman, on 24 March 2013 - 10:04 PM, said:

You honestly don't see the problem with allowing schools to draw their own athletic boundaries? If you allow LCC to draw an athletic boundary inclusive of the area that fits their current transfer allocation... then every school will want the same exception.

Over here in Delphos..our physical building sits in the extreme west portion of the district. We would like to include Van Wert in our athletic boundaries so we to don't face a multiplier on as many posdible athletes we can get our hands on there too.

The fact that LCC would like to have their boundaries cross multiple school districts is the very reason the multiplier is appropriate for LCC. Every school would love to pull athletes from multiple school districts. Those who DO...have a distinct athletic advantage that this proposal is trying to mitigate.

You might think that LCC and their faithful would appreciate their good fortune to pull so many kids across so many borders...? But it seems they want to label this equalizer (multiplier) a punishment. It is not a punishment. It is an equalization tool to try and form fair and competative classifications.

Perspective again... LCC may stay in III...or god forbid move up to II. We are really supposed to think moving LCC to II is a punishment? Are we saying LCC can't compete with Bath and Elida? I thought LCC was looking for tougher competition...?

I am not buying that line of reasoning. LCC will be just fine with this proposal without already asking for special exemptions. At least let it play out...

Whether they are a III or a II their students will have access to a fine private education and continued access to some of the most competitive athletic programs in the state. There is no doubt in my mind that LCC would be one of the state's DIV II powerhouses IF that is where they end up.

I'd argue that this system with them moving to II is better than status quo. Currently a great percentage of sport's fans respect LCC's athletic accomplishments as much as VASJ's state title. I don't necessarily think that is fair. But it is reality. This proposal gives them cover in the sense that they can now point to the multiplier every time somebody turns their nose at a T-bird accomplishment. It erases the "shadiness" inherent in the current system. That is of course unless LCC sneaks in the dark to get special boundaries drawn just for them. Do that and... "same old LCC." Always looking for any advantage to win a trophy.

I say this is the perfect opportunity for LCC and their faithful to put up or shut up. We have heard long enough about how their success is from "working harder." I too think that is a part of it. We have also heard about their quest to seek tougher competition. Here is their chance to prove those are more than empty words.

I must admit I'm a bit discouraged that a group who has a reputation for talking such a tough game is whining so hard about a possible move to DIV II before even seeing how they might fare there. But then again... those boys, adults, and fans from VASJ demonstrated no shame yesterday too...

Show me where I said LCC should be able to draw their own boundary. They can have a boundary set by the OHSAA. And, again, that was just one example of how to set up their "district." If you don't want to make a boundary, then have something like all non-Catholics are considered "out of district."

Kids from Columbus Grove school district will typically go to CG, kids from Bath school district will typically go to bath, Kids from Elida school district will typically go to Elida, kids from Shawnee school district will NOT typically go to LCC. See the issue? I really could not care less if LCC plays D2 or D3 basketball, it's just not that important to me. But if you're going to implement a whole new system to make it "fair" for everyone, then make it so that it is, in fact, fair for everyone.

[Bobby]

To have a system that says that the Catholic grade schools in Lima aren't part of the LCC "district" is ridiculous. The kids that attend those schools aren't transfers when they move on to LCC.

[Bobby]

ICU2014, on 25 March 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

I hate to mention it but the Leipsic girls b-ball team next year will most likely have five players that are PG residents--including two 3-year varsity starters. Does this hurt Leipsic in the long run?

If the rules in the new proposal stay the same, those five girls would be X5 and would add 25 girls to the Leipsic female enrollment. Leipsic's current female enrollment, per OHSAA, is 85. Add 25 = 110. The current cutoff for Div IV is 118. The 85 is from the last enrollment report and enrollments will be updated this year. The enrollment numbers for many, many schools will change as well with the new proposal so it's hard to determine for sure where Leipsic will land. They would likely remain Div IV but it's hard to say for sure right now. If their female enrollment jumps 5-6 girls, or 1-2 out of district students, they could be dangerously close to Div III.

[Dman]

Every single school...private or public...can be a feeder school for ANY other school. You start drawing special boundaries and the cheating will no longer come in the form of transfers and recruiting. The cheating will come in the form of district redraws. The boundaries have already been drawn. The proposal states the physical location of the building sets the boundary. LCC has the option to not vote for the proposal. Or...should it pass they can choose not to participate in the OHSAA.

Something is going to pass. We almost got a private/public seperation anyhow. This proposal goes down...and we will probably see that vote back in short order.

I understand why LCC prefers status quo. They have benifitted disproportionately for years. Losing that benifit is tough. Even IF somehow they end up in DIV II because of this proposal... So what...?

I don't know how this vote will go down statewide. But I suspect that locally the argument that "poor little LCC" shouldn't be DIV II will not sway a lot of principals to vote "no." They MAY be able to get DSJ's to slit their own throat in Catholic unity...but that is about it.

I find it hillarious that the current system grossly benifits just one school locally...the new system (some argue) helps every other local school EXCEPT the present benefactor... But for some on this site... NOW is the time for a fairness discussion.

You will have to excuse me if I don't believe some of you are all that concerned with "fairness." You are concerned LCC might have a more difficult time winning championships. Many of these same folks now feigning a belief in an "equal playing field" either took LCC's side or stayed silent with all the NWC discussion.

[bbdad]

I haven't lived in Ohio for years and use this site to keep up on athletics in NW Ohio. I'm sorry to hear what happened in the DIV finals. Three pointers while up 25? Stay classy, Cleveland, stay classy.

This debate is ALL about power, pure and simple. To me, the solution has always been to place them in a separate private school division. The schools themselves should do it themselves but there would be additional travel costs because the OHSAA would never let their members schools play non-OHSAA schools. I'm sure they could be successfully sued to be forced to allow it but...who has the money for the lawyers?

And, frankly, the smaller schools should have consolidated years ago. Not to create mega schools but, honestly, there is NO sense to having a separate Fort Jennings school district. Kalida, Ottoville and FJ should all be together. School/town pride, yeah, I know. Put football in so every little Johnny can get playing time. You'll see what pride develops with football.

Yeah, I know, the money for the new schools was there, yada, yada, yada. But yet you wonder why there was a budget crisis in Ohio? Can't take it back now!

I think small schools can be great. Don't get me wrong. But you pay a price for it. Monetarily and, in this case, athletically. Perhaps we'll see the ramifications of building a multi-million dollar school in Fort Jennings with a beautiful gym when they can't field a team because there are only 4 boys left in the top four classes.

Again, there are advantages to sending your kids to a small school. I know it. But, again, there is a price to be paid for it.

And if you think I'm picking on FJ, let me assure you, I've been to Cleveland and I've been to FJ. All things considered, I'd rather be in FJ. And if I could choose to send my kids to a school in Cleveland or FJ, well, is there really a choice? Perhaps Cleveland will see the price of THEIR choices the next time somebody accidently drops a lit match in the river!

[waterloowonder]

Maltese Falcon, on 24 March 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

Let me first say that I am in favor of this new system being explored by the OHSAA.

The exception I have with your post is that most private schools don't reject students. Heck, the vast majority of private schools are actually losing enrollment and want to bring on more students ( some even go as far as to advertise). Since tuition is the schools main source of operating revenue.

Also Africentric is technically a public school (in name only). It is part of the Columbus city schools and does not charge tuition.......the real crock is that you have to be "selected" to go there.......so the school can control enrollment.

I could have worded that better. I understand private schools don't reject the less fortunate students. They don't have to reject them. The tuition requirement does that for them. I also know that Africentric is a public school, but this newly proposed rule will effect them in the same manner it effects private schools.

[Dman]

I'm beginning to wonder if the public-private split COMBINED with this proposal to govern the publics is not the best option...?

I suspect if this vote doesn't pass with private support...it could lead to the "split" then a revote on the proposal.

The privates are in a tough spot. If they want to stay (not sure they do)...they might have to hold their nose and vote for this thing.

The political climate is SO agitated that a lot of folks smarter than I need to really think about the dynamics of what happens IF this goes down.

[Maltese Falcon]

waterloowonder, on 25 March 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

I could have worded that better. I understand private schools don't reject the less fortunate students. They don't have to reject them. The tuition requirement does that for them. I also know that Africentric is a public school, but this newly proposed rule will effect them in the same manner it effects private schools.

I agree totally with both points.......I was just pointing out the ridiculousness of Africentric being called a "public" school, it is taxpayer supported, yet it is not a true public school since everyone who may want to go there can't unless they are selected.

[Rd2Glory]

Dman, on 25 March 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

Every single school...private or public...can be a feeder school for ANY other school. You start drawing special boundaries and the cheating will no longer come in the form of transfers and recruiting. The cheating will come in the form of district redraws. The boundaries have already been drawn. The proposal states the physical location of the building sets the boundary. LCC has the option to not vote for the proposal. Or...should it pass they can choose not to participate in the OHSAA.

Something is going to pass. We almost got a private/public seperation anyhow. This proposal goes down...and we will probably see that vote back in short order.

I understand why LCC prefers status quo. They have benifitted disproportionately for years. Losing that benifit is tough. Even IF somehow they end up in DIV II because of this proposal... So what...?

I don't know how this vote will go down statewide. But I suspect that locally the argument that "poor little LCC" shouldn't be DIV II will not sway a lot of principals to vote "no." They MAY be able to get DSJ's to slit their own throat in Catholic unity...but that is about it.

I find it hillarious that the current system grossly benifits just one school locally...the new system (some argue) helps every other local school EXCEPT the present benefactor... But for some on this site... NOW is the time for a fairness discussion.

You will have to excuse me if I don't believe some of you are all that concerned with "fairness." You are concerned LCC might have a more difficult time winning championships. Many of these same folks now feigning a belief in an "equal playing field" either took LCC's side or stayed silent with all the NWC discussion.

If you want people to read the novels you put on here, you should at least take the time to actually read others' posts. Please, give one example in either of these threads of someone arguing for the status quo.

[Dman]

Sorry glory... Status quo to me.. as long as most of us have been alive...is LCC gets to pick players from any school district they would like to in the area. You will have to forgive me if I interpret the immediate reponse from those supporting LCC to look in a lot a lot closer to status quo than some great change.

To me LCC looks like a Division 2 team. Others may disagree. Therefore I'm simply not going to be convinced that a system that at worst puts LCC in Division 2 is some sort of great diservice.. I think there is a much better argument to be made at LCC in Division 3 was/is much more unfair...

I also think there is a decent argument to be made that LCC and schools like them that b**** too much may not be worth the headache...for a system that seems to have a lot of potential for your typical school district. I see no need to bend over backwards to make exceptions for the odd man out. They can either learn to play nice or find a better way by themselves. We are at this point because of schools exactly like them. If they want to stay at the party... might be time for them to adhere to house rules.

I don't care where LCC ends up as long as they are subject to some reasonable rules. I personally don't find them asking for an exception to boundaries reasonable. I would rather show them the door than cave to their demands. Others may disagree and that's why we will have a vote.

I also think we should let the process play out before criticizing. What if LCC stays in Division 3? Or what if they prefer to be in Division 2 where they can attract more attention for their athletes? There are too many unknowns...

I do appreciate that every person who is participating in the discudsion seems to believe that this system is indeed better than status quo. Maybe there is hope yet...?

[Bobby]

Dman, on 25 March 2013 - 08:43 PM, said:

Sorry glory... Status quo to me.. as long as most of us have been alive...is LCC gets to pick players from any school district they would like to in the area. You will have to forgive me if I interpret the immediate reponse from those supporting LCC to look in a lot a lot closer to status quo than some great change.

To me LCC looks like a Division 2 team. Others may disagree. Therefore I'm simply not going to be convinced that a system that at worst puts LCC in Division 2 is some sort of great diservice.. I think there is a much better argument to be made at LCC in Division 3 was/is much more unfair...

I also think we should let the process play out before criticizing. What if LCC stays in Division 3? Or what if they prefer to be in Division 2 where they can attract more attention for their athletes? There are too many unknowns...

I do appreciate that every person who is participating in the discudsion seems to believe that this system is indeed better than status quo. Maybe there is hope yet...?

I don't know of anyone who says LCC should be able to "pick" players from any school district. But to say students in their own elementary schools should be considered "out of district" is ridiculous. And the notion that private schools "pick" players from anywhere is equally ridiculous. I've never known any player to have been forced to attend a private school because that school "picked" him or her.

If LCC looks like a Div II school then obviously OG looks like a Div II school also. Wouldn't they be better served playing in Div II also? Would OG prefer to be in Div II to gain more attention for their athletes? Do you seriously believe that there is any school whose main focus is to gain attention for their athletes?

Yes, we get it, you hate LCC.

[paperboy]

waterloowonder, on 24 March 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

Having gone to a school since you were in first grade has nothing to do with the purpose of this proposal.  The purpose of this is to rightfully classify schools for athletics based on the population area they draw students from.

Can you please explain how taking a kid that has gone to a school since the first grade and counting him/her as five kids will help to 'rightfully classify' that kid's school?

[Rd2Glory]

Dman, on 25 March 2013 - 08:43 PM, said:

Sorry glory... Status quo to me.. as long as most of us have been alive...is LCC gets to pick players from any school district they would like to in the area. You will have to forgive me if I interpret the immediate reponse from those supporting LCC to look in a lot a lot closer to status quo than some great change.

To me LCC looks like a Division 2 team. Others may disagree. Therefore I'm simply not going to be convinced that a system that at worst puts LCC in Division 2 is some sort of great diservice.. I think there is a much better argument to be made at LCC in Division 3 was/is much more unfair...

I also think there is a decent argument to be made that LCC and schools like them that b**** too much may not be worth the headache...for a system that seems to have a lot of potential for your typical school district. I see no need to bend over backwards to make exceptions for the odd man out. They can either learn to play nice or find a better way by themselves. We are at this point because of schools exactly like them. If they want to stay at the party... might be time for them to adhere to house rules.

I don't care where LCC ends up as long as they are subject to some reasonable rules. I personally don't find them asking for an exception to boundaries reasonable. I would rather show them the door than cave to their demands. Others may disagree and that's why we will have a vote.

I also think we should let the process play out before criticizing. What if LCC stays in Division 3? Or what if they prefer to be in Division 2 where they can attract more attention for their athletes? There are too many unknowns...

I do appreciate that every person who is participating in the discudsion seems to believe that this system is indeed better than status quo. Maybe there is hope yet...?

You do care where LCC ends up, that's why you are unwilling to concede that they should be subject to "reasonable rules."

You want to go from one system that you believe favors a certain type of school (privates) and switch to a different system that favors a certain type of school (publics). Your unwillingness to concede that private schools should have a "district" that is representative of people who would typically attend that school is absurd. It's lewd, lascivious, salacious, outrageous!

I'm done arguing with you about this. Your agenda, while well masked behind thought and reason, is clear, and no amount of arguing on here will change anyone's minds. Good day, sir!

[polkhigh33]

So if LCC goes to Div. II and beats Elida in a tourney game are any if you going to feel any better about LCC?

[paperboy]

Dman, on 25 March 2013 - 08:43 PM, said:

I do appreciate that every person who is participating in the discudsion seems to believe that this system is indeed better than status quo. Maybe there is hope yet...?

Hell, there is hope every year for every team - we don't need gerrymandered divisional classifications to give us hope. And for the record, I'm one that doesn't believe that this system is better than the status quo. And yes, I support a public school that likely won't be affected by any of this shucking and jiving.

I laugh when I read about what 'happened' to those poor Leipsic kids as if they were a part of some horrible cataclysm. They got beat in a frigging basketball game! I don't know anyone from Leipsic but I have a feeling their psyches will be OK.

Dman I have to give your credit for framing the debate the way you have (by the way, do you still beat your wife?). Carl Rove, Lee Atwater, and James Carville would all be proud. However, my feelings fall short of admiration when I pick up the heavily anti-LCC tone of almost every one of your posts. It's dishonest, distasteful, and quite simply, a little silly of you.