75 replies to this topic

[Bobby]

govikes, on 16 March 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

You want to tell me that these others schools have kids who have played together for 12 years? I feel that schools that can attract students from a large population base have an unfair advantage over schools who take what the residents give them. Leipsic gets 100 boys in high school out of a population base of 3000 town/country residents, in a 50 square mile district. CVASJ, Troy C., Newark Catholic, etc. get 100 students out of a much larger population base, perhaps 10+ times larger than our base.

How do you know the kids from Troy Christian haven't been there for 12 years? In the 13 years prior to this year, Troy Christian has gone 6-13 in tournament games. This was their first district title ever. Maybe they have a great class coming through just like Leipsic.

[LimaJock]

Me think Common Sense acting like PROPHET in statement. I also suspect this D 4 state boys tourney could change OHSAA sports as we know it.

LJ

[kaizen]

yeah, like voting for separate tourneys!!! see how that would go over for a few years.

Edited by kaizen, 17 March 2013 - 08:33 AM.

[govikes]

Bobby, on 16 March 2013 - 10:18 PM, said:

How do you know the kids from Troy Christian haven't been there for 12 years? In the 13 years prior to this year, Troy Christian has gone 6-13 in tournament games. This was their first district title ever. Maybe they have a great class coming through just like Leipsic.

Check post #16, I stated that I didnt know. Have they been together? Bobby, you seem to be informed, can you research this?

[Bobby]

govikes, on 17 March 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

Check post #16, I stated that I didnt know. Have they been together? Bobby, you seem to be informed, can you research this?

I'm not the one questioning whether they have or not. I have no evidence to say that they haven't been at Troy Christian their entire school career. Do you?

Why is this even a question? Why is it when a private school has success it's instantly assumed that they've brought in transfers, assembled talent, etc... Yet when a public school has success it's celebrated as good kids, good coaches, great story, etc... How do we know all the kids on Leipsic's team are actually from Leipsic? Both Leipsic and Troy Christian are both in their first Final Four. Yet one team is celebrated and the other is looked upon with suspicion.
There was no uproar when Berlin Hiland won back to back state titles led by a transfer. Was there an outcry to separate the tournaments when Columbus Grove was beaten in the state finals by a South Webster team that was led by a transfer?

[flounder]

Bobby......

Exactly and very well stated!!!!!!

[Horizon]

I don't know the first thing about Troy Christian's roster but rest assured that Leipsic has students that have been in the Leipsic community for their entire school experience. For the majority of Leipsic players, their parents and grandparents are also alumni and residents of Leipsic.

The point has been made previously that Troy, Ohio has a population of 25,000, Lancaster has 39,000 people, and the Cleveland metro area has 1.7 million residents. I am not familiar with what restrictions Troy Christian, VASJ and Fairfield Christian operate concerning eligibility requirements to attend their schools. But it is what it is and this is the way the OHSAA currently configures the divisions. So, just show up, play your best, and enjoy the moment.

Edited by Horizon, 17 March 2013 - 12:23 PM.

[Dman]

Who do you clowns think you are fooling? There was heated discussion on this very site about Hiland and South Webster. There are legions of basketball fans who look at their tainted accomplishments with the same respect as a Ben Johnson foot race. I know it is difficult to see beyond your catholic nose sometimes... But cut the "woe is me...everything is so unfair" self-pity.

People CONSISTENTLY don't admire recruiting and transfer utilization regardless of private/public status. Ada has taken more grief than LCC on this very site. Dunbar is a black eye for a vast majority of sports lovers.

I don't for one minute believe you guys dont KNOW this. You are simply participating in bull******* propaganda. You deserve to get called on it!

P.S. People generally assume the Catholics and the Urban publics are gaming the system because they generally are. The rural publics are late to this vital component to winning OHSAA basketball championships. But make no mistake... Recruitment and transfers along with geographic location are much more reliable predictors of Ohio basketball sucess than any traditional (coach, hard work, etc) measures. That is the cold hard reality of Ohio High School Basketball circa 2013.

[Bobby]

Horizon, on 17 March 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

I don't know the first thing about Troy Christian's roster but rest assured that Leipsic has students that have been in the Leipsic community for their entire school experience. For the majority of Leipsic players, their parents and grandparents are also alumni and residents of Leipsic.

This is what we at DSJ say when people accuse us of recruiting, etc... The accusers NEVER believe us even though it's all true. Why should I believe you? (BTW: I do believe you but just trying to make a point.) i work with a lady from Leipsic whose retired husband frequents the coffee shop with all the other old farts. I hear what they think and believe about DSJ, especially after the last two football playoff matchups. I can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that their beliefs have absolutely no merit but I will never change their mind.

Private schools typically have to be in areas with larger populations because the pool of students who would consider attending their school is quite limited. There is a large majority who would never send their child to a school like Troy Christian, for a variety of reasons from religious to financial to "they don't care". Delphos is the second smallest community in Ohio to have a Catholic school and maybe the second smallest with a private school.

[flounder]

Dman, on 17 March 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

Who do you clowns think you are fooling? There was heated discussion on this very site about Hiland and South Webster. There are legions of basketball fans who look at their tainted accomplishments with the same respect as a Ben Johnson foot race. I know it is difficult to see beyond your catholic nose sometimes... But cut the "woe is me...everything is so unfair" self-pity.

People CONSISTENTLY don't admire recruiting and transfer utilization regardless of private/public status. Ada has taken more grief than LCC on this very site. Dunbar is a black eye for a vast majority of sports lovers.

I don't for one minute believe you guys dont KNOW this. You are simply participating in bull******* propaganda. You deserve to get called on it!

P.S. People generally assume the Catholics and the Urban publics are gaming the system because they generally are. The rural publics are late to this vital component to winning OHSAA basketball championships. But make no mistake... Recruitment and transfers along with geographic location are much more reliable predictors of Ohio basketball sucess than any traditional (coach, hard work, etc) measures. That is the cold hard reality of Ohio High School Basketball circa 2013.

Dman......

Actually I agree with many things that you say.......we all know that private and some public schools recruit......but, how are you going to solve this issue and still not hurt the private and public schools who do not recruit......I know OHSAA has no clue....and it is going to be a tough issue to solve and make everyone happy.......I mean....look at Shadyside...they accused DSJ of not playing by the rules because we destroyed them.....so far from the truth, but still they made a uninformed accusation.....gawd they were so bad that 10 divisions in football would not have made them competitive.......but still, being in state tournament, they felt they deserved a chance to win it all........man, something has to be done and no one knows the solution!!!!

[dw629]

Bobby, on 17 March 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

This is what we at DSJ say when people accuse us of recruiting, etc... The accusers NEVER believe us even though it's all true. Why should I believe you? (BTW: I do believe you but just trying to make a point.) i work with a lady from Leipsic whose retired husband frequents the coffee shop with all the other old farts. I hear what they think and believe about DSJ, especially after the last two football playoff matchups. I can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that their beliefs have absolutely no merit but I will never change their mind.

Private schools typically have to be in areas with larger populations because the pool of students who would consider attending their school is quite limited. There is a large majority who would never send their child to a school like Troy Christian, for a variety of reasons from religious to financial to "they don't care". Delphos is the second smallest community in Ohio to have a Catholic school and maybe the second smallest with a private school.

How many state titles in bball would an OG catholic high school have? Pulling from 7-8 thousand mostly the kids with good home lives and great work ethic competing in the D4 tournament with basically this roster they have now? There are quit a few kids at OGHS that aren't catholic heck the Ottawa public school would have won 3 straight titles in 02, 03, 04 with Pollitz competing in D3 and at the same time the OG catholic HS might have won the D4 title. But instead they meet up with ASVSM and LeBron in D2

[Bobby]

Dman, on 17 March 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

People CONSISTENTLY don't admire recruiting and transfer utilization regardless of private/public status. Ada has taken more grief than LCC on this very site. Dunbar is a black eye for a vast majority of sports lovers.

P.S. People generally assume the Catholics and the Urban publics are gaming the system because they generally are.

Ada more grief than LCC? You're gonna have to prove that one to me.

So you're basically saying they/we ALL do it. So can we say that since South Webster, Berlin Hiland, Dayton Dunbar, etc... do it that ALL public schools do it?

flounder, on 17 March 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

Dman......

Actually I agree with many things that you say.......we all know that some private and some public schools recruit

I fixed your mistake.

[flounder]

Bobby, on 17 March 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

Ada more grief than LCC? You're gonna have to prove that one to me.

So you're basically saying they/we ALL do it. So can we say that since South Webster, Berlin Hiland, Dayton Dunbar, etc... do it that ALL public schools do it?



I fixed your mistake.

Thanks Bobby......we are both on the same page here!!!!!

[Johnstown Benny]

govikes, on 16 March 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

DSJ has had the same kids together throughout their 12 years. This was stated on previous FB posts so I wasn't going to include them. Perhaps the other Christian Schools are the same way, I don't know.

You didn't have any problem listing Newark Catholic in your previous post. Why don't you be more specific and advise
exactly what Newark Catholic kids were recruited/transfers and didn't come through the NC system. You state " perhaps other Christian schools are the same way,I don't know." That's exactly right, you don't know . Just toss out some schools with a history of athletic success and just make a blanket statement they have an unfair advantage over your school.

JB

[govikes]

Benny, I listed NC as a school who can draw students from a large population base. I'm not saying these kids haven't played for years, I said it was hard to believe. Newark is a large city with more choices. If parents want to send their kids to a Catholic Elementary, Junior, and Senior High, then good for them. Is it for the education or athletic tradition or both? I have a niece and a nephew who graduated from NC, so I am somewhat familiar with the program
My point is that the of the 10 seniors on our team 9 come from Leipsic as did their parents, and grandparents. One player came from Tinora in 4th grade. I would hope other teams all know each others parents and grandparents as well as our team does.

[Dman]

Bobby:

You have participated in threads where Hiland and Ada transfers are being discused in negative connotations. Even when it is happening in front of your nose...your primary emphasis is to change the focus toward some hypothetical slight toward private Catholic schools. There is no premeditated slight. Those schools who utilize such tactics are shunned by a certain percentage of the population because we feel the method to achieve success is wrong. It is as wrong at Ada as it is at LCC. It HAS been discuss HERE multiple times.

[vikesbacker]

flounder, on 17 March 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

Dman......

Actually I agree with many things that you say.......we all know that private and some public schools recruit......but, how are you going to solve this issue and still not hurt the private and public schools who do not recruit......I know OHSAA has no clue....and it is going to be a tough issue to solve and make everyone happy.......I mean....look at Shadyside...they accused DSJ of not playing by the rules because we destroyed them.....so far from the truth, but still they made a uninformed accusation.....gawd they were so bad that 10 divisions in football would not have made them competitive.......but still, being in state tournament, they felt they deserved a chance to win it all........man, something has to be done and no one knows the solution!!!!

Great post here that I would say covers what most in this area believe. Minus the ole farts at the coffe shop i guess. Why that would hurt anyone's feelings, I have no idea. There are seperate debates on population to flat out recruiting and they get tied together too often. Like Flounder said, how do you fix this without hurting the innocent bystanders. I guess I see it this way... They'll probably screw it up more than it is before they ever come close to fixing anything. So until then, play the team who's next and leave it all on the floor/field. Without all the goliaths in the world, there would be no great stories about the few times one is taken down. Having that opportunity is something these boys I'm sure would love to have. They are competitive as hell and the stories will be great regardless when they tell their kids and grandkids. Good luck boys.

[cat alum]

I don't believe there is a solution to this thing. There is always going to be a way around the rules, there will always be people on the outside looking out for their own interests, and there will always be dollar bills turning heads the other way. Unfortunately, it is a reflection of the society we live in today. This becomes a big issue every year, and others really don't get a full grasp of it until it hits home. And I can tell you it's not just inner city publics and private schools doing this. the SCL had a case of this with Fairlawn and 3 transfers back in 2004 and 2005. I could go on about the Lockland team that beat Houston in the regional finals and their transfers, or the ineligible players from Harvest Prep that beat Houston in the state semis, but there is no going back and fixing it. You have to deal with the system, realize there will always be "weasels", and just play the game. I think you have to look at the positive of this situation and the life lessons that are taught as I said this is a reflection of our society and goes beyond high school basketball.
There is one group of boys, that has been "given" what is needed to win. In Cleveland, they have access to many parks and rec centers and better talent to compete against. D1 talent takes a lot of commitment and I'd go as far to say none of these kids have had to work a day of their lives due to the aforementioned dollar bills. These kids know one thing, and that is basketball. They don't understand the hard reality that isn't the NBA. They won't understand how little of an achievement their state title is until years down the road. Once again, they're 16-18 years old and see LeBron going to play with his guys, so why not be like LeBron? Wait until LIFE hits these boys, and their talent wasn't enough to get to where they all think they're going.
Then you have a group of boys who have known each other their entire lives and will probably for the majority stay within that community for the rest of their lives. They all come from working class families and have been "taught" what it takes to win. These boys get better by playing each other when they are very limitedly able to get in their schools gym. Most of them have summer jobs and other interests outside of basketball. They realize the NBA isn't an option. I'm sure most of them realize their playing days are over and it's on to life's next venture. They understand what they're up against and know they most likely wont shock the world. But most of all, they have options and tools to be successful in life after basketball.
All you can do is be proud of your small town team of boys that have stuck together and will have each others backs for life. They have worked for everything they have accomplished and have done it with what they have, not what they were "given".

[Bobby]

Dman, on 17 March 2013 - 04:56 PM, said:

Bobby:

You have participated in threads where Hiland and Ada transfers are being discused in negative connotations. Even when it is happening in front of your nose...your primary emphasis is to change the focus toward some hypothetical slight toward private Catholic schools. There is no premeditated slight. Those schools who utilize such tactics are shunned by a certain percentage of the population because we feel the method to achieve success is wrong. It is as wrong at Ada as it is at LCC. It HAS been discuss HERE multiple times.

Yes, I have. But no one is campaigning to have those schools put into their own separate tournament. And no one is indicting ALL public schools because of what those two did. LCC has taken grief much, much, much more than those two put together much less Ada alone.

Hypothetical slight toward Catholic schools? There is nothing hypothetical about it. There is a vote being taken in May to segregate ALL of us into a separate tournament. There is no legislation aimed at open enrollment schools only private schools.

[effingA]

Who knows the stories of ANY of these kids' lives, whether it's private or public... We don't walk in their shoes, so how do we know what we would do or where we attend school? It's real easy to judge from behind a name on a computer screen.