198 replies to this topic

[tfloangel]

Most talent in any division??? Seriously...

Fairmont, Twinsburg, West Holmes, Hathaway Brown, and Orrville are just a few that I have seen personally that will be there that are on a different talent level than any other I've seen this year. You might be pushing it a bit

Edited by tfloangel, 11 March 2013 - 01:13 PM.

[Mysterio]

caldwell, on 11 March 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

Ottoville has the most talent in the state at any division!!! Anything less than a State Championship would be unacceptable.

I appreciate your analysis of Ottoville caldwell. I would say in Division 4 possibly, but it's all speculation in the other divisions. If Kaufman didn't tear her ACL, I think clearly they would be the most talented team in Division 4, maybe even in 3. But I think it's a little premature at this point to say in any division though lol..

[PostPlayer]

I think Ottoville wins it this year; almost like they are "due"...plus they are very, very good as many teams are when you get this far.

Mysterio - I agree with you on the big girl fouls syndrome...there are few referees that call the foul in the post correctly. Far too many times guards jump into big girls to draw the foul , and they are almost always called regardless of the big girl standing her ground and hands straight up. It has always frustrated me and it is almost as bad in boys. Siefker is unusually big and surely that hurts her some on getting calls as apposed to good guard players ALWAYS get the call...not sure why post players do not get the same calls especially when they are exceptionally good players.

Enjoy your state tourney run with Ottoville Mysterio - you have had to been there to understand how awesome it is and fortunately I was able to see it happen last year and get the "big prize" our 1st trip there. The icing on the cake was when the boys made it too only to lose to Berlin Hiland who could have won 3 of the 4 divisions last year...

[Mysterio]

PostPlayer, on 11 March 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

I think Ottoville wins it this year; almost like they are "due"...plus they are very, very good as many teams are when you get this far.

Mysterio - I agree with you on the big girl fouls syndrome...there are few referees that call the foul in the post correctly. Far too many times guards jump into big girls to draw the foul , and they are almost always called regardless of the big girl standing her ground and hands straight up. It has always frustrated me and it is almost as bad in boys. Siefker is unusually big and surely that hurts her some on getting calls as apposed to good guard players ALWAYS get the call...not sure why post players do not get the same calls especially when they are exceptionally good players.

Enjoy your state tourney run with Ottoville Mysterio - you have had to been there to understand how awesome it is and fortunately I was able to see it happen last year and get the "big prize" our 1st trip there. The icing on the cake was when the boys made it too only to lose to Berlin Hiland who could have won 3 of the 4 divisions last year...

Trust me Post, I will be going down there for the 4th time for our girls program. I know the enjoyment of what it is like down there but never felt enjoyment coming home. lol Hopefully they can do it this year. Thanks for the support.

Edited by Mysterio, 11 March 2013 - 01:36 PM.

[flounder]

tfloangel, on 11 March 2013 - 01:12 PM, said:

Most talent in any division??? Seriously...

Fairmont, Twinsburg, West Holmes, Hathaway Brown, and Orrville are just a few that I have seen personally that will be there that are on a different talent level than any other I've seen this year. You might be pushing it a bit

tflo.....

Some people don't get out much and only view the local talent.....many teams in Ohio have much more talent than Ottoville!!!!!

[flounder]

I am telling you people....Ottoville is loaded, but I know for sure that both Fort Loramie and Berlin Hiland will not go away easily....and many times before, I thought it was Ottoville's year, only to see them lose.....all teams are usually pretty good at this level....I have seen Loramie play and this Darion Rose is the real deal!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mysterio]

flounder, on 11 March 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

I am telling you people....Ottoville is loaded, but I know for sure that both Fort Loramie and Berlin Hiland will not go away easily....and many times before, I thought it was Ottoville's year, only to see them lose.....all teams are usually pretty good at this level....I have seen Loramie play and this Darion Rose is the real deal!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh there is no denying that flounder. Do I think Ottoville has the best team in the state? Maybe if they had Kaufman there is no doubt. But I still know they can get the job done. But will be going up against two of the toughest opponents that they have seen this year. Berlin Hiland is always down there and has a good program year in and out along with Fort Loramie who has been pretty as of late. For any that follow girls basketball they should know that Fort Loramie and Berlin Hiland are two really good programs.

Edited by Mysterio, 11 March 2013 - 02:21 PM.

[Snip]

Mysterio, on 11 March 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

2 takedowns? Well you can say that I am biased all you want but I fail to see anything that seemed like a "takedown" through what you might have seen. But we all view things differently I guess so not a big deal. I was just simply referring to her getting picked on because of her size, Post. I wasn't saying that the officiating was bad. Sometimes when you are taller than everyone, refs seem to target you more. She also receives a lot of contact more than others and yet no foul is called. But it happens, that's part of the game. I even thought Ottoville didn't play their best game. They hit some threes but they also missed more than they usually do. At least they are learning to play though when they get into foul trouble.

I have seen some of the fouls that you are refering to as ticky tacky but like you say in this post, the officials are watching her when the ball gets near her. I don't agree with the calls either but I think the officials are seeing her arms or hands over top of the girl shooting and thats why they call the foul, even tho it's not a foul. She needs to stay straight up until the ball leaves the shooters hands and then block it. IMO

GO BIG GREEN!!!!!!!!!!! Hope they do it this year.

[BIG DOG]

PostPlayer, on 11 March 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

I think Ottoville wins it this year; almost like they are "due"...plus they are very, very good as many teams are when you get this far.

Mysterio - I agree with you on the big girl fouls syndrome...there are few referees that call the foul in the post correctly. Far too many times guards jump into big girls to draw the foul , and they are almost always called regardless of the big girl standing her ground and hands straight up. It has always frustrated me and it is almost as bad in boys. Siefker is unusually big and surely that hurts her some on getting calls as apposed to good guard players ALWAYS get the call...not sure why post players do not get the same calls especially when they are exceptionally good players.

Enjoy your state tourney run with Ottoville Mysterio - you have had to been there to understand how awesome it is and fortunately I was able to see it happen last year and get the "big prize" our 1st trip there. The icing on the cake was when the boys made it too only to lose to Berlin Hiland who could have won 3 of the 4 divisions last year...

It sounds like you were a "post player" that was screwed by the refs, I feel your pain.

[tfloangel]

Just for the record - I can agree fully with everyone for once. I think the girls game is often called very differently from boys. In some ways, I think they allow more contact among guards than they do on the boys side, but I think that when it comes to being around the bucket, they either allow all-out mauling or nothing

My biggest thing is that alot of refs seem to believe that girls are not able to cleanly block shots... I used to always tell my players that you can try it once, but that if a ref calls you for it the first time, they will call it EVERY time (that's of course provided it was a 'clean' block to begin with)

I will say that for Hiland - and it sounds like for Ottoville certainly and likely Fort Loramie - a game that is kept in hand but allows for them to "play" a bit will be beneficial, and certainly more entertaining. Hopefully they let them play hard (but clean)

[Common Sense]

Fouls are part of the game and any level, boys or girls. Big girls get more fouls by bodying people going to the basket. We get up in arms when we see the clean block called and I understand that. But I've always said fouls, like anything else, shooting, overall play, level out over time. The game is 32 minutes long, this gives both teams enough time to get behind, come back, miss shots, get in foul trouble, etc.

My feeling is over the course of 32 minutes, the best team that day wins. You get a foul early, you ADJUST the way you play. This is the biggest thing I see, especially with girls. They tend to play the same way, with 1 foul or 4, early or late. Siefker is the foundation the Big Green has built their team around, and alot of other good players to fill in. Their hi-lo game is very, very difficult to defend, and they have some kids that can knock down shots. Basketball isn't a real complicated game if you utilize the spacing and have good passers.
Now Siefker has proven over time that she's suseptible to foul trouble, it just seems to happen to her. With the stakes the hightest in Columbus, can they play long stretches without her, and can they play a really good smaller team who can run?? Those are the two ways you can attack Ottoville. But I think they have a good of chance as anyone.

[Mysterio]

Common Sense, on 12 March 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

Fouls are part of the game and any level, boys or girls. Big girls get more fouls by bodying people going to the basket. We get up in arms when we see the clean block called and I understand that. But I've always said fouls, like anything else, shooting, overall play, level out over time. The game is 32 minutes long, this gives both teams enough time to get behind, come back, miss shots, get in foul trouble, etc.

My feeling is over the course of 32 minutes, the best team that day wins. You get a foul early, you ADJUST the way you play. This is the biggest thing I see, especially with girls. They tend to play the same way, with 1 foul or 4, early or late.

I understand what you are saying, but I don't agree with that girls play the same way with 1 or 4 fouls. Some may do yes. Girls get more emotional in my opinion. If a ref is calling fouls on them that shoudn't be called, more than likely they will become more timid or hesitant. But some of them I agree may not change at all and have 4 fouls heading into the second half already (assuming the coach doesn't take her out). I realize the game is 32 minutes long and teams do adjust but sometimes it could change the momentum of the game if your star player or players are out due to foul trouble. Thus costing your team in the end. The best team does not necessarily always win because of this. I know it seems like I would be blaming the officials when I say this, but I think sometimes in games like these (tournament), how the officials call the game could play a small part in the duration of the game. Wether they call it tight or loose. It sounds premature to some but if you think about it teams play differently. Not using the officials as the reason for a loss or win but depending on how they call the game could either hurt or help a team. But in the end it boils down to luck and it just being your night who wins it all.

Edited by Mysterio, 12 March 2013 - 08:24 AM.

[Common Sense]

Mysterio, on 12 March 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

I understand what you are saying, but I don't agree with that girls play the same way with 1 or 4 fouls. Some may do yes. Girls get more emotional in my opinion. If a ref is calling fouls on them that shoudn't be called, more than likely they will become more timid or hesitant. But some of them I agree may not change at all and have 4 fouls heading into the second half already (assuming the coach doesn't take her out). I realize the game is 32 minutes long and teams do adjust but sometimes it could change the momentum of the game if your star player or players are out due to foul trouble. Thus costing your team in the end. The best team does not necessarily always win because of this. I know it seems like I would be blaming the officials when I say this, but I think sometimes in games like these (tournament), how the officials call the game could play a small part in the duration of the game. Wether they call it tight or loose. It sounds premature to some but if you think about it teams play differently. Not using the officials as the reason for a loss or win but depending on how they call the game could either hurt or help a team. But in the end it boils down to luck and it just being your night who wins it all.

And I think you're getting my point. Do you just play the way you do, and don't care how the officials call the game, or do you adjust as the game goes on. You've got to instruct your best players to NOT get in foul trouble early. If you play aggressively all the time, you run the risk of being in foul trouble, and don't blame the officials for doing their jobs.
We put way too much blame on officials when we lose. Why don't we praise them when we win? Kids who can play with fouls are invaluable, some kids just can't do it.

[PostPlayer]

CommonSense makes some good points, but I will stick to my guns on the fact that too many officials do not understand how to call the post play these days for some reason. I absolutely hate the "body" call on the block when guards are taught at all schools to jump into the defender and draw the foul. We teach it very early and rightfully so - but the facts are "jumping into a defender to draw a foul" is considered an offensive foul but is called defensively 90% of the time. Not sure why this is such a tough call to make by officials that ref 20-30 games per year, plus the training they have. It just seems more prevelant in girls basketball when playing against a tall post player.

I guess we/I should be thankful we even have refs that want to call games, b/c I know I would never do it at the varsity level...

[Common Sense]

PostPlayer, on 12 March 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

CommonSense makes some good points, but I will stick to my guns on the fact that too many officials do not understand how to call the post play these days for some reason. I absolutely hate the "body" call on the block when guards are taught at all schools to jump into the defender and draw the foul. We teach it very early and rightfully so - but the facts are "jumping into a defender to draw a foul" is considered an offensive foul but is called defensively 90% of the time. Not sure why this is such a tough call to make by officials that ref 20-30 games per year, plus the training they have. It just seems more prevelant in girls basketball when playing against a tall post player.

I guess we/I should be thankful we even have refs that want to call games, b/c I know I would never do it at the varsity level...

Don't you feel the lack of girls taking charges adds to this. Guys ball, especaily the good high school and college teams, take charges 8-10 times a game. You're lucky to see a high school girl take a charge 1 or 2 times a season. Girl goes to the basket, there's contact, neither falls down, most officials are going to call the defense on the blocking unless they are perfecly still. This is another rule that's evolved over the years. In the men's college and pro game, you see the "vertical" rule called where if the offensive player lowers the shoulder, it's an offensive foul, regardless of weather the defensive player is "set" or not.
I guess since there is no uniform way officials call that, you have to again, teach your kids to adjust as the game goes on. If that means telling your big girl with 3 fouls early in the 3rd quarter to run away from any contact, then so be it.

[tfloangel]

I was going to say I agree with postplayer here... I think the way the game is called is pretty consistent, so there is no reason a player should'nt be able to adjust to it by this point in the season. I'm just not sure I feel that referees have settled in the true middle ground with that consistency... For the most part I feel that they err too much on the side of "ticky tack, in favor of the offensive player" type calls when the defender is stationary and isn't initiating contact or actually makes the clean block. I like the way that refs have tried to go away from making calls in the NBA when the offensive player attempts to initiate contact.

But reading common sense's comment about taking the charge makes sense, too, and adds a different element to it. I guess if anything (maybe it comes from watching the amount of college games I have in recent years) I think maybe there should be more "play-ons" than there are. Granted, I know the risk you run at letting that happen at this age that some people wouldn't know the balance and start pummeling people, but a player who is able to stand their ground and play good hard-nosed defense without swatting at everything in sight shouldn't have a foul called on them for being in the vicinity every time they are there to challenge a shot.

Edited by tfloangel, 12 March 2013 - 03:12 PM.

[JimBucks]

Looking over the game by game results for both Fort Loramie and Ottoville. Loramie appears to be much more battle tested. The Big Green have played 2 games all season. Opening weekend game # 2, and Minster first game after losing Kaufman...everything else ended up a blowout. The Redskins three losses are to Anna twice and Miami East, so I can easily consider them in the same class as undefeated Ottoville. This should be a heck of semifinal. I think the Big Green will get it done by 8-10. Has anybody seen both teams play this year. I have not seen Loramie in person.

[flounder]

Jim......

I have seen Loramie and they will give Ottoville all they can handle........they pressure you the entire game and have one of the best guards I have ever seen in D4....her name is Darion Rose......like I stated earlier...if Siefker gets in foul trouble, Ottoville could be in deep trouble.......Loramie hung on to beat a Marion Local team in the Regionals and this Marion Local team was much better than their record......Loramie is very much like Hiland.....pressure the ball and good guard play!!!!!!!!!!!!

[PostPlayer]

flounder, on 12 March 2013 - 09:49 PM, said:

Jim......

I have seen Loramie and they will give Ottoville all they can handle........they pressure you the entire game and have one of the best guards I have ever seen in D4....her name is Darion Rose......like I stated earlier...if Siefker gets in foul trouble, Ottoville could be in deep trouble.......Loramie hung on to beat a Marion Local team in the Regionals and this Marion Local team was much better than their record......Loramie is very much like Hiland.....pressure the ball and good guard play!!!!!!!!!!!!

This sounds very similar to last year's recipe to beat Ottoville by Arlington...defense is key.

[Mysterio]

PostPlayer, on 13 March 2013 - 05:45 AM, said:

This sounds very similar to last year's recipe to beat Ottoville by Arlington...defense is key.

Defense, banked threes lol, and it being your night (as we always mention).

Flounder I think anytime a team's best player gets into foul trouble it could be a problem for them. Just saying bud. But I see what you're saying. Can't wait to get to that varsity club. Like we have said over and over this late in the season it will take a team that has everything go their way to win it all.

Edited by Mysterio, 13 March 2013 - 06:53 AM.