76 replies to this topic

[flounder]

omniscient1, on 01 March 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

I think ALL coaches objective is to outscore the other team. This is done by taking "quality" shots for your team and limiting quality attempts for the other team. Wayno's definition of a "quality" shot is just much more narrow than most people who would have their team chuck up a shot just because they are getting bored waiting for a "quality" shot.

You pretty much nailed it 'omni'.......and that is why it doesn't really bother me that much.....there was a time I absolutely hated it, but when you look at the whole picture in today's basketball scene, it really is the smart thing to do.....hell, this didn't start with Wayno as you can go back years to the college days when Massimino, Valvano and many of the Big East schools coaches employed this style....like I stated earlier.....winning is what it is about, and if you limit the possessions, turnovers, and play great D, you will compete in most of your games....even if you don't have the best athletes.....it's called discipline and I really think that is why many people hate to watch it........because very few have discipline in today's world.........

On the other side of the coin.......what really drives me crazy is watching undisciplined players come running down the floor refusing to acknowledge an open team mate and throwing up a 3 or penetrating completely out of control and getting called for a charge or not even drawing iron......so, what is worse...

And Holgate is not playing stall ball.......I like to call it disciplined ball.......and this is coming from someone who is a fan from another school!!!!!

[erniefurgler]

labatts69, on 28 February 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

Louden u sure on that? I know we went in 94 and they were not there as it was ayersville, lb, and usv. I believe kuhlman and taller junge graduated in 95. I don't remember them playing in regionals in 93 or 95 but maybe mistaken.

Holgate was knocked out in the first game of sectionals in '94...they were the #1 seed at OG & lost to Grove I believe...MC was the #2 that year & lost to Continental...Holgate got to regionals in '95 & lost to a loaded Liberty Benton team (Granger, Butler)...Wayno ball was implemented that game & almost worked...LB squeaked out a 2-3 pt win

[labatts69]

erniefurgler, on 01 March 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

Holgate was knocked out in the first game of sectionals in '94...they were the #1 seed at OG & lost to Grove I believe...MC was the #2 that year & lost to Continental...Holgate got to regionals in '95 & lost to a loaded Liberty Benton team (Granger, Butler)...Wayno ball was implemented that game & almost worked...LB squeaked out a 2-3 pt win

cool, thanks for the clarification. i stand corrected as i was searching all over websites to find out and no one had any info last nite. the only thing i was able to find was the last ap poll and the final 4 bracket from state. my next option was to go to my father in-laws state programs he keeps and see if the eventual team from our region played holgate to get there

[Mr Bearcat]

A shot clock is Not the answer! The answer is to play defense and force the ref to start the five second count. If the defense is going to set back in a zone, then it is their own fault!

[Bobby]

I checked the OHSAA website and New Knoxville has almost exactly the same enrollment at Holgate. Thanks heavens New Knoxville doesn't play that way.

For those of you who like Holgate's style, would you be happy if your school played this way?

[Mr Bearcat]

Bobby, on 01 March 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

I checked the OHSAA website and New Knoxville has almost exactly the same enrollment at Holgate. Thanks heavens New Knoxville doesn't play that way.

For those of you who like Holgate's style, would you be happy if your school played this way?

I think FJ is the smallest school in the State, and they do Not play that way either!

[waterloowonder]

erniefurgler, on 01 March 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

Holgate was knocked out in the first game of sectionals in '94...they were the #1 seed at OG & lost to Grove I believe...MC was the #2 that year & lost to Continental...Holgate got to regionals in '95 & lost to a loaded Liberty Benton team (Granger, Butler)...Wayno ball was implemented that game & almost worked...LB squeaked out a 2-3 pt win

Exactly right. Holgate had one their best teams in 1994. Their best player (Clark) hurt his knee right before tournament and they were ousted by Grove in the first game. Also, you are right, the slow down tactics started for the first time vs. Liberty Benton in 1995.

I also think many posting here are wrong when they say Holgate stalls. They are certainly deliberate, but will take a shot quickly if a good one develops. Holgate's low scores in recent years have more to do with a lack of shooting abilitly than anything. Stalling is what Antwerp did when Clemens coached. They stood at half court with the ball held under their arms. What Continental did vs. Holgate on Wedn. was close to a stall. They really had no intention of shooting unless Holgate got out of the way and gave them a layup.

[basketballstud]

flounder, on 01 March 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

stud.......

You are completely wrong in that assessment....completely wrong!!!!!

Flounder I watched several DSJ games in '02. I am not completely wrong. I will take you back to districts at Elida when Ottoville was underdog and in a very close game. Delphos gets a 5 pt. lead 4th quarter and DSJ decides to stall. Ottoville ending up losing by 8. I am not saying they did this every game but they did against Old Fort, Holgate at Regionals and also at State. You will Have to check film. lol! Coach name was Brett Norris

[the answer]

I am in strong favor of a shot clock, and not just because of teams like Holgate. The thing that I have been seeing more and more lately is a team having a 7 point lead with 6 minutes to go in the fourth quarter and start playing like there is a minute to go and play for layups only. It has gotten to the point where a lot of games might as well be 3 quarters. Also the same thing is happening at the end of quarters. I was able to catch some of the Van Wert and Elida game the other night (which are two teams that play up-tempo ball) and noticed at the end of the second quarter Van Wert's last two possessions were a minute each, and it would have just been one long two minute possession but they turned it over after stalling for a minute or so the first time. Not only are they shortening the games by stalling so early in the fourth, but it seems like if there is under 2 minutes to go in any quarter teams want to play for one shot. This is why more and more games are ending in the 30s and 40s instead of 50s and 60s. Instead of games being 32 minutes they're basically only playing basketball for 20-25 minutes.

[Bigbrownman]

These games are absolutely terrible to watch.... I just hope Holgate doesn't get any radio coverage.... that would be the worst game to listen to ever....


-end of probably only post for the first quarter of 2013...

[erniefurgler]

waterloowonder, on 01 March 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

Exactly right. Holgate had one their best teams in 1994. Their best player (Clark) hurt his knee right before tournament and they were ousted by Grove in the first game. Also, you are right, the slow down tactics started for the first time vs. Liberty Benton in 1995.

I also think many posting here are wrong when they say Holgate stalls. They are certainly deliberate, but will take a shot quickly if a good one develops. Holgate's low scores in recent years have more to do with a lack of shooting abilitly than anything. Stalling is what Antwerp did when Clemens coached. They stood at half court with the ball held under their arms. What Continental did vs. Holgate on Wedn. was close to a stall. They really had no intention of shooting unless Holgate got out of the way and gave them a layup.

Who was the Clark kid? I do not remember him for some reason...thought Kuhlman was GMC POY in '94 & '95?? Agree with the deliberate vs. stalling...they can & will score when necessary...scorched the nets for 10 pts in the 4th Wed night

[cs59]

There has been more posts on this subject than Holgate deserves or could score in points in 2 games. If it weren't for stallball nobody would ever mention Holgate so maybe that is Wayne's real objective. You can put lipstick on a pig but it's still a pig!

[Common Sense]

This is an interested topic that gets lots of attention. As we know, there are a few elite teams in the area, some good teams, and some bad teams. The teams that are in the good and bad category can only beat an elite team by taking advantage of any rules that govern play. There is no shot clock in basketball, so limiting possessions and keeping the game as close as possible is a viable way to try to win games.

To limit possessions, you have to have kids who can handle the basketball without turning it over. This is the reason many bad teams stay bad. Even if they try to hold the ball, the more talented team just takes it away from them, and once you are down by 15 points, you can't hold the ball anymore.

Anyone that's been in the area the last 10 years remembers Keith Deibler's style that he brought to Upper Sandusky several years ago. They literally forced you to the basket and allowed you to score, pressed you down the floor and forced you to score again.
Thought was that
A. they were in better shape than you, so you'd be tired by the 2nd half
B. They would trade you 3 point baskets for 2 point baskets
c. You'd turn the ball over enough that it would eventually work in their favor.

Now, Deibler had this style at Fostoria before Upper, and it's a process. You play this style with kids out of shape or kids who can't play fast, and it's very ugly, and you get shreded by good teams. But eventually, he got his guys in place and won a state title with this style.

I guess my main point is fast or slow, you have to play to the strenghts of your kids, and not just a style. Sure, fans like to see more action, but at the end of the day if you win, they really don't care if it's 20-18 or 100-98.

[bballcat]

I watch Holgate play every weekend and the biggest drawback that I see for the kids is that a very talented kid may get passed by a college because they don't see the offensive numbers to draw the colleges to recruit them. Colleges don't care about defense.

Another thing that someone pointed out is that the kids don't shoot well and not just holding the ball. Holgate took more shots than Continental Wednesday but just didn't shoot well.

[veteranlefty]

Let's see.... go watch paint dry or go to a Holgate boys game? I understand a patient approach but when every game is in the 20's or 30's there is zero entertainment value and that style cannot be real fun to play either. The sooner they are out of tourney the better IMO but I am sure Holgate fans beg to differ. Clash of styles is part of the tourney for sure and Holgate is different than almost any other team in style of play. Maybe they feel it is an advantage.

[bballcat]

At $6.00 for a ticket and 20-18 score(38 total points), you paid a dollar for every 6.33 points scored.

[Dman]

Could Holgate ever have won state playing a traditional style?

[flounder]

Mr Bearcat, on 01 March 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

I think FJ is the smallest school in the State, and they do Not play that way either!

lmao.......no FJ does not play that way.....but, maybe they should as they have a hard time beating anybody.....they bring it down..chuck up a shot that you can get anytime you want, simply because it is a terrible shot...they had like 6 wins this season and maybe a couple last year and are currently trying to find a ride to watch other teams advance down the tourney trail!!!!!

[flounder]

basketballstud, on 01 March 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

Flounder I watched several DSJ games in '02. I am not completely wrong. I will take you back to districts at Elida when Ottoville was underdog and in a very close game. Delphos gets a 5 pt. lead 4th quarter and DSJ decides to stall. Ottoville ending up losing by 8. I am not saying they did this every game but they did against Old Fort, Holgate at Regionals and also at State. You will Have to check film. lol! Coach name was Brett Norris

stud.......

You are wrong....I was at the Holgate game and Old Fort and we did not stall either one of those games.....I'll tell Brett the next time I see him that some fan from Ottoville said he played stall ball those 2 games......he could probably use a good laugh!!!!

[flounder]

I watch quite a few games every season......maybe everyone doesn't feel this way, but I think finding a player who is a good shooter is getting harder to find......Holgate's style helps this kind of team.......can you imagine what a shot clock would be like for these players who have trouble scoring......Dakota Mathias is by far the best shooting player I have seen in quite some time....a rarity.....also...if you want to beat Holgate...get them down early...we did in 2002, and it actually made them change their style.....hey, it's basketball...adapt and outscore your opponent....it isn't like you don't know what is going to happen.....like I have said....I don't totally agree with it, but if I was in Holgate's Coach Wayno's position, I would do the same......and Holgate does have 1 banner proving that their style does work.....who can argue with success!!!!!