149 replies to this topic

[jeffcat-bucki]

Hound Dog, on 06 December 2012 - 08:34 PM, said:

It would be if they were not a part of the OHSAA. Insurance is a big deal. The catastrophic insurance covers everything to do with a game. Officials, spectators if they get hurt at a game, players, etc.

You are correct, although I think with the mass of private schools around the state, they would be fine in accruing that type of funding and backing insurance-wise. Facilities and referees can be shared amongst both associations(if there are 2 associations).

[jeffcat-bucki]

Rd2Glory, on 06 December 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

I don't really see everyone being happy in this case. The private school division would most likely make it legal to recruit/offer athletic scholarships/etc. Public school people might be happy at first, but when their teams get worse and they lose all of their athletes to recruiting private schools, I don't see the public school people being happy for long.

How is that any different from what is happening now? Whether it is happening a lot or a little, it's still happening regardless. They could throw cash around like a collegiate university for all I care, but as long as public system's kids are there by "legal" means, I really couldn't care less how good or bad the public schools are in comparison to given private schools since they are not participating in the public tournaments.

I went out and supported DJ when they went to state and I supported them when they went 0-10. As long as I'm an alum and the kids are out on the field trying, I'm proud of them regardless of how anybody else is doing.

Edited by jeffcat-bucki, 06 December 2012 - 11:09 PM.

[flounder]

I really don't think this will pass......many public schools really don't care what the privates do...if your school is competitive most seasons, it won't bother you........if your school is into the pussification of America....yea, it will have a big effect!!!!!

[jeffcat-bucki]

flounder, on 06 December 2012 - 11:35 PM, said:

I really don't think this will pass......many public schools really don't care what the privates do...if your school is competitive most seasons, it won't bother you........if your school is into the pussification of America....yea, it will have a big effect!!!!!

I wouldn't be so sure. It really wasn't that far off from passing the 1st time around and now that it's been simplified, it's a lot more cut and dry for some of the public(and private for that matter) schools as opposed to weeding through all the possibilities of the bi-clauses in the 2nd version.

Either way, I don't really care.

[The Owl]

As a supporter of a small public high school athletics program that is traditionally very good, I think the debate about "recruiting" detracts from the real issue that needs to be discussed. Personally I think the huge number of kids in the large public schools mostly offsets the advantages that private schoos have. When a big public school gets outstanding coaching and is well funded, they don't need to "recruit" because their talent pool is there - unless other private schools are pulling several of the best kids out of the program every year...

The real issue to me is the ability of a private school to keep its overall numbers very low, while granting scholarships to great athletes which gives them a huge advantage over other smaller public schools. It's simple math.

High schools are divided into different divsions, because the larger schools have a large pool of potential athletes which almost always generates a more talented team. Given that all other factors are relatively equal such as coaching and demographics, larger schools will consistently beat smaller schools.

Yet smaller private schools can decide what their enrollment will be and still retain the advantages of being able to bring in top athletes who want to play for an outstanding program. Not only that, they can "find" the financial means for great athletes to attend their institution while other students pay tens of thousands to attend. This automatically forces most kids from poorer famiies that are not great athletes to attend the public school, which in cities can be a pretty large number of kids.

I'm not real familiar with how private schools operate, so I apologize if some of my comments are inaccurate. What percentage of applicants are rejected from admittance each year? How many academic scholarships are granted to similarly disadvantaged students who do not play sports? Are there scholarships for other talents, such as music or art? I think private schools are a great option, and if I lived in an area with a great private school like LCC, DSJ, or Kettering Alter, I'd probably support my kids attending them, especially if they were granted free admission. \

But the different system is inherently a huge competitive advantage.

I'd hate to see the private schools separate, but I'd like to see the private schools divided into 3 equal divisions by size and match each up with the corresponding public school division. The largest privates are DI, the medium sized are DII, and the smaller are DIII. Or, private schools are prohbited from granting athletic scholarships at all

And all you folks from MAC powerhouses that think everyone is a crybaby, you are fortunate to be a part of a perfect storm of factors that generate an incredible success rate. Sure, Coldwater and Marion Local can compete against the very best privates and win, but most MAC schools don't face the disadvantages that most public schools near larger cities experience every year.
Most kids from MAC schools come from hard-working families, in an area with fairly few poor families, with no private schools pulling out your best kids year after year. They also have great coaches and outstanding support from their parents, school and community. How many football programs in the MAC even have soccer to compete for talent?

Ada, McComb, LB, and Patrick Henry need to work to catch to up with the MAC schools, but at least they are more or less playing by the same rules.

[paperboy]

Owl, I believe you're going to get educated on the myth of private schools 'holding their enrollment'. To make it short, private schools have very little to gain and much to lose if they were to try to cap their enrollment to stay within a certain division. The more students that come, the more money these schools get, and it just wouldn't make sense to not allow students in simply because it may bump a school to a high division.

[The Owl]

paperboy, on 07 December 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

Owl, I believe you're going to get educated on the myth of private schools 'holding their enrollment'. To make it short, private schools have very little to gain and much to lose if they were to try to cap their enrollment to stay within a certain division. The more students that come, the more money these schools get, and it just wouldn't make sense to not allow students in simply because it may bump a school to a high division.

Whether or not you overtly attempt to keep your numbers low or not does not matter. If the structure of admittance and attendence is such that it encourages low numbers, and that structure is different from public schools then it is an advantage.

Perhaps private schools don't have to make any effort to "hold their enrollment", because the cost of attending that institution in itself prohibits a large percentage of young people from attending.

If I have I have to explain why a system that is designed to blend kids that have the financial backing to pay for their education with outstanding athletes that can attend for free has an advantage, then we are just spinning our wheels here.

[Bobby]

The Owl, on 07 December 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

The real issue to me is the ability of a private school to keep its overall numbers very low, while granting scholarships to great athletes which gives them a huge advantage over other smaller public schools. It's simple math.

Yet smaller private schools can decide what their enrollment will be and still retain the advantages of being able to bring in top athletes who want to play for an outstanding program. Not only that, they can "find" the financial means for great athletes to attend their institution while other students pay tens of thousands to attend. This automatically forces most kids from poorer famiies that are not great athletes to attend the public school, which in cities can be a pretty large number of kids.

I'm not real familiar with how private schools operate, so I apologize if some of my comments are inaccurate. What percentage of applicants are rejected from admittance each year? How many academic scholarships are granted to similarly disadvantaged students who do not play sports? Are there scholarships for other talents, such as music or art? I think private schools are a great option, and if I lived in an area with a great private school like LCC, DSJ, or Kettering Alter, I'd probably support my kids attending them, especially if they were granted free admission. \

But the different system is inherently a huge competitive advantage.

I'd hate to see the private schools separate, but I'd like to see the private schools divided into 3 equal divisions by size and match each up with the corresponding public school division. The largest privates are DI, the medium sized are DII, and the smaller are DIII. Or, private schools are prohbited from granting athletic scholarships at all

And all you folks from MAC powerhouses that think everyone is a crybaby, you are fortunate to be a part of a perfect storm of factors that generate an incredible success rate. Sure, Coldwater and Marion Local can compete against the very best privates and win, but most MAC schools don't face the disadvantages that most public schools near larger cities experience every year.
Most kids from MAC schools come from hard-working families, in an area with fairly few poor families, with no private schools pulling out your best kids year after year. They also have great coaches and outstanding support from their parents, school and community. How many football programs in the MAC even have soccer to compete for talent?

Ada, McComb, LB, and Patrick Henry need to work to catch to up with the MAC schools, but at least they are more or less playing by the same rules.

You're really not familiar with private schools, are you?

You asked % of students not granted admission: at DSJ and most schools, 0% are rejected. We have no admission test, no waiting list. You apply, you're in. Yes, you're required to pay tuition and the students must follow the rules, which eliminates a lot of students. Students are required to take Catholic religion classes which eliminates even more students.
We give no academic or any kind of "scholarships". We have tuition assistance which is administered by an outside company. It is based totally on the family's finances. No one attends for free.
What advantage is there for a private school to let an athlete attend for free? Aren't public schools free, too?
In NW Ohio (west of I-75 and north of Rt. 30) there are few private schools. Conferences like the NWOAL, GMC, BVC, PCL, etc... don't lose kids to private schools. Yet they can't begin to match the MAC's success. If Ada, LB, Patrick Henry, McComb, Leipsic, etc... are playing by the same rules as the MAC, why can't they match them in success?
And the persistent idea that private schools control their enrollment for athletic purposes is too ridiculous to warrant a response.

[flounder]

Bobby pretty much tells it like it is........the most hilarious comment that I hear which absolutely defies any logic is this.........."the privates control their numbers"......are you kidding me....lmao!!!!!

[Mr Bearcat]

If a Private school has an enterace exam(I believe LCC does) they are controlling enrollment plain and simple. Now you could argue why they control it,but that doesn't matter really, and could be hard to prove why anyways. Private School do Not have to accept everybody, but Public schools have to give every student a chance.

[The Owl]

You're really not familiar with private schools, are you?

No I am not. That's why I clearly stated that I was not, and apologized if I have some misconceptions. I'm seeking to become better educated on these topics. Isn't that what these forums are for?

You asked % of students not granted admission: at DSJ and most schools, 0% are rejected. We have no admission test, no waiting list. You apply, you're in.

Is there some type of financial check, or assurance of an ability to pay investigated? Is this consistent for most private schools?

Yes, you're required to pay tuition and the students must follow the rules, which eliminates a lot of students. Students are required to take Catholic religion classes which eliminates even more students.

We give no academic or any kind of "scholarships". We have tuition assistance which is administered by an outside company. It is based totally on the family's finances. No one attends for free.

I would assume that the poorer the family, the less they pay, right? So a kid from a single parent family with multiple siblings likely would pay very little to attend a private school? What's the low end of how much some of these inner city kids have to pay?

What advantage is there for a private school to let an athlete attend for free?

Seriously? Uh, greatly improved athletic programs? State championships? Happy alums writing checks for the program maybe?

Aren't public schools free, too?

Yes. How is this relevant? This is a distractor.


In NW Ohio (west of I-75 and north of Rt. 30) there are few private schools. Conferences like the NWOAL, GMC, BVC, PCL, etc... don't lose kids to private schools. Yet they can't begin to match the MAC's success. If Ada, LB, Patrick Henry, McComb, Leipsic, etc... are playing by the same rules as the MAC, why can't they match them in success?

I don't consider DSJ a typical private school. I don't imagine they get many kids who aren't from Delphos, and grew up in the DSJ school system. From what I've seen, I think they do things the right way. If all private schools did business like DSJ, there wouldn't be an issue.

Already talked about the MAC. Perfect storm of good conditions to develop outstanding football programs, particularly that they have to work so hard to be competitive in their own conference. Quit being defensive. DSJ and the MAC are NOT the problem. They are the exception to the norm, and are the paragon of the way things SHOULD be.

How many MAC schools have soccer, btw?

And the persistent idea that private schools control their enrollment for athletic purposes is too ridiculous to warrant a response.

It may not be for athletic purposes, but if a private school limits their enrollment for ANY reason, and still lets every good athlete in the area enroll, then its a different system. Are you SURE no private school anywhere does this?

They don't have to control their enrollment, the tuition does that for them. From what you have said, I don't understand why more disadvantaged kids that aren't athletes, aren't enrolling in private schools and receiving tuition assistance to get a better education. Do you think that is a cultural thing that only athletes tend to take advantage of a private school education?

Edited by The Owl, 07 December 2012 - 02:02 PM.

[flounder]

owl.......

Seriously....wow...

All students at DSJ pay the same amount.....yes, no one gets a free ride...as Bobby mentioned..there is assisstance granted, but that does not come from the school.....and I know of no athletes that are on scholarshp and attending DSJ because of their athletic ability........my god man...we aren't a college....

As I stated earlier...we do not control our numbers and are only to happy to take any student in that can pay tuition...remember one very important thing....we are not supported by the public school system......soooooooooooooo, it stands to reason that the more students that attend our school....the more likely we can keep our school open......uh, I don't think all the athletes in the world and state championship in the state can keep us open......pretty simple don't you think....plain economics boys...we need all the students we can get to pay the bills and stay open.......bingo and church socials just don't get it done......

I will give you some credit owl.......you aren't lumping DSJ in with the private schools that cheat....we are clean, but we will lose out....just like other clean private scools if there is a separation between private and public......

Are there private schools that cheat.......hell yes there are.....bit I feel the percentage is low....I also feel that is the reason why this so called bill has not passed!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[veteranlefty]

The last time this was voted on it failed by 2/3 to 1/3 margin.....is there really any chance that vote will be close this time? The last two years the "competitive balance" issue failed but margin was pretty close. This would be a pretty radical change for Ohio HS sports.

[effingA]

DSJ is different as it really doesn't have an "area" to recruit from... I have never felt that they had any other than their kids attend... Sure, someone from Van Wert or surrounding community but they were the exception not the rule... all schools have those kids. I will say this though; IF it costs money to attend the private school, they have essentially controlled their attendance. The lower income kids are not going to be able to attend, in general. Those that attend have the means and support from somewhere. Those kids, in general, are going to be much more active in school, whether it's athletics, band, choir, etc... The bottom third economically doesn't attend private schools, generally. So the publics end up with them. Therefore the public school is at a disadvantage, in relationship to the privates' population versus the publics' population. Which schools has a greater % of their students involved? That's the advantage privates have... their population is, in general, much more likely to participate in school activities. We both have 100 boys in the top 3 grades but the privates 100 are much more likely to be doing something than the publics.

[diassingle]

My 2011 football state program says 717 schools played football. How many schools are there in the ohsaa ? Wasn't the last vote like 325 to 303 ? So is voting optional ? Owl did your school vote ?

[waterloowonder]

In this debate you cannot mention recruiting, open enrollment, and controlling enrollment. They may or may not be true factors, but they take the focus off the real issue. The real issue is demograhics and the fact that private schools don't have to deal with it. Tuition and entrance requirements deals with it for them. Public schools (with exceptions such MAC schools and a few others) are full of delinquent kids from poor, one or no parent families, that contribute nothing other than increasing the enrollment numbers. Many of them are academically ineligible and are just lucky to make it to school occasionally. Private schools have what I call a "pure enrollment" that is almost completely void of the undesireables. This is why I favor a multiplier of 1.4 or 1.5 for all private schools. I am not in favor of separate public - private divisions. I think that vote will fail, but I do think a multiplier vote would pass.

[paperboy]

waterloowonder, on 07 December 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

In this debate you cannot mention recruiting, open enrollment, and controlling enrollment. They may or may not be true factors, but they take the focus off the real issue. The real issue is demograhics and the fact that private schools don't have to deal with it. Tuition and entrance requirements deals with it for them. Public schools (with exceptions such MAC schools and a few others) are full of delinquent kids from poor, one or no parent families, that contribute nothing other than increasing the enrollment numbers. Many of them are academically ineligible and are just lucky to make it to school occasionally. Private schools have what I call a "pure enrollment" that is almost completely void of the undesireables. This is why I favor a multiplier of 1.4 or 1.5 for all private schools. I am not in favor of separate public - private divisions. I think that vote will fail, but I do think a multiplier vote would pass.

I see where you are coming from, but I don't buy into some of your assumptions. Consider schools like Trotwood-Madison or Toledo Whitmer, for instance. Both have more than their share of 'undesirables' yet still manage to succeed in sports. I understand that stable backgrounds are important, but what of the inner city kids that have nothing BUT sports? Certainly they contribute plenty to their programs.

[jeffcat-bucki]

paperboy, on 07 December 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

I see where you are coming from, but I don't buy into some of your assumptions. Consider schools like Trotwood-Madison or Toledo Whitmer, for instance. Both have more than their share of 'undesirables' yet still manage to succeed in sports. I understand that stable backgrounds are important, but what of the inner city kids that have nothing BUT sports? Certainly they contribute plenty to their programs.

Trotwood is more or less a knock off of Glenville.

Whitmer's enrollment has blown up due to Toledo Public School levies crashing, so most all of the best athletes in Toledo went to Whitmer(which is in another district) or private(Central Catholic, etc). Whitmer has been investigated for these transfers as they are sketchy to say the least.

[The Owl]

flounder... why the drama and the "wows"? Is it designed to make someone look stupid to bolster your argument?

You seem to be suggesting that all the underpriveleged families of great athletes at private schols are spending a good percentage of the tuition to attend? That this "private aid" or "assistance" is negligible?

I'd like to get away from your fanatical defense of DSJ and consider what most private schools based in or near a larger city are like.

Can you tell me without any doubt that it is uncommon for 10-13 year old athletes to be steered towards private schools with good athletic programs? Kids that can't afford to spend that kind of money, but "caring folks" in that private school community seem to help them find the finances to do so?

If this does happen fairly often, and I bet it does, and those "caring folks" don't make any effort to find academically talented kids from other poor families then the whole defense that private enrollment = public enrollment is really quite sad IMO.

Agree that legit private schools would suffer, but somehow I don't think DSJ would have much trouble in DIII when they are loaded.

[jeffcat-bucki]

The Owl, on 07 December 2012 - 10:46 PM, said:

flounder... why the drama and the "wows"? Is it designed to make someone look stupid to bolster your argument?

You seem to be suggesting that all the underpriveleged families of great athletes at private schols are spending a good percentage of the tuition to attend? That this "private aid" or "assistance" is negligible?

I'd like to get away from your fanatical defense of DSJ and consider what most private schools based in or near a larger city are like.

Can you tell me without any doubt that it is uncommon for 10-13 year old athletes to be steered towards private schools with good athletic programs? Kids that can't afford to spend that kind of money, but "caring folks" in that private school community seem to help them find the finances to do so?

If this does happen fairly often, and I bet it does, and those "caring folks" don't make any effort to find academically talented kids from other poor families then the whole defense that private enrollment = public enrollment is really quite sad IMO.

Agree that legit private schools would suffer, but somehow I don't think DSJ would have much trouble in DIII when they are loaded.

"Caring folks" from Ursuline tend to steer in nice kids like Akise Teague into their strong academic sanctuary to be a model citizen....















......and then later get kicked out of Cincinnati for breaking and entering and burglarizing in the dorms.