58 replies to this topic

[tigerball13]

well you can blame that on the state as they keep changing the amount you get for retirement by your years of service. many teachers were able to get out at 30yrs and get around 80-90% of their pay. now i believe it is at 35yrs to get that. not saying that some of the teachers that have been there awhile don't need to go but why would you retire when you can not draw enough? this is why you see alot of "double dipping" with teachers retiring and then either getting rehired at a lower rate or going to a different district.

how do you pay a teacher on merit? what if they have a terrible class and the students don't want to do the work and learn one year and say get a 70% on testing. The next year it is totally different and they score a 85% and kids come from good homes with parents who are willing to work with their kids and not expect everything to be learned at school. Did the teacher do something different to get higher scores? Probably not, but that is what they deal with. They don't have the choice of picking the kids to teach like say a foreman at a shop who can hire and fire until he finds the person to do the job. If teaching was so easy everyone would be doing it. It takes a special breed to put up with kids and some parents. Try having a parent teacher conference with a parent who doesn't speak english and you have to have the 8 year old student try and be the translator. I could go on and on with some of the experiences my wife has been thru over the years.

I agree. Right now, I'm observing a teacher at Kettering Fairmont. I get to observe for two periods once a week, and there are so many different types of kids in just those two classes. In the first class, there are all kinds of trouble makers who just don't care about learning, and their scores are absolutely horrendous. The next class is full of kids who actually seem like they want to learn and are willing to put a good effort into class everyday, and they have much better test scores.

So which class do you pay the teacher for? Or do you average it? The teacher teaches three World History classes. Two of the three have students that are excelling at the subject while the class I'm there to observe, has a class full of students failing/doing terribly. While the merit idea seems like a decent idea (to rid of the horrible teachers), how do you decide what is a great teacher. (Because I'm sure we all know how to find a bad one).

Edited by tigerball13, 03 March 2011 - 02:37 PM.

[Courtdad1998]

well you can blame that on the state as they keep changing the amount you get for retirement by your years of service. many teachers were able to get out at 30yrs and get around 80-90% of their pay. now i believe it is at 35yrs to get that. not saying that some of the teachers that have been there awhile don't need to go but why would you retire when you can not draw enough? this is why you see alot of "double dipping" with teachers retiring and then either getting rehired at a lower rate or going to a different district.

how do you pay a teacher on merit? what if they have a terrible class and the students don't want to do the work and learn one year and say get a 70% on testing. The next year it is totally different and they score a 85% and kids come from good homes with parents who are willing to work with their kids and not expect everything to be learned at school. Did the teacher do something different to get higher scores? Probably not, but that is what they deal with. They don't have the choice of picking the kids to teach like say a foreman at a shop who can hire and fire until he finds the person to do the job. If teaching was so easy everyone would be doing it. It takes a special breed to put up with kids and some parents. Try having a parent teacher conference with a parent who doesn't speak english and you have to have the 8 year old student try and be the translator. I could go on and on with some of the experiences my wife has been thru over the years.

I disagree with double dipping. I also think it's absurd for someone to expect to retire and get paid 80-90% of what they made when they were working for the rest of their potentially long life? THAT would be the biggest problem. Simple math should tell someone that they cannot work for 30 years, put in 10% of their pay and get another 30 yrs of the same pay. It just doesnt add up. Granted, it isn't the teachers fault, it's the states fault for allowing it in the first place.

As for merit, let's get real. A good administrator knows whether or not a teacher is effective. If he/she doesn't, they shouldn't be an administrator in the first place. There are tons of teachers that 1) should never have been hired in the first place, 2) should never have been allowed to hang on as long as they have.

Not sure what district your wife teaches in, but I don't see those types of issues here. Coming from Florida, I laugh whenever anyone mentions cultural diversity. I would agree about having to put up with parents. As a sometime coach, I have learned it isn't something that I would be able to do. But I also didn't pick it as a career. And from what I see, there are some people that did, that shouldn't have.

[labatts69]

I disagree with double dipping. I also think it's absurd for someone to expect to retire and get paid 80-90% of what they made when they were working for the rest of their potentially long life? THAT would be the biggest problem. Simple math should tell someone that they cannot work for 30 years, put in 10% of their pay and get another 30 yrs of the same pay. It just doesnt add up. Granted, it isn't the teachers fault, it's the states fault for allowing it in the first place.

As for merit, let's get real. A good administrator knows whether or not a teacher is effective. If he/she doesn't, they shouldn't be an administrator in the first place. There are tons of teachers that 1) should never have been hired in the first place, 2) should never have been allowed to hang on as long as they have.

Not sure what district your wife teaches in, but I don't see those types of issues here. Coming from Florida, I laugh whenever anyone mentions cultural diversity. I would agree about having to put up with parents. As a sometime coach, I have learned it isn't something that I would be able to do. But I also didn't pick it as a career. And from what I see, there are some people that did, that shouldn't have.

you never answered the question, how do you evaluate on merit tho? test scores, children passing grades and not being held back? there would have to be some type of standard put into place for admin's to go by. yes, there are bad teachers out there but they should not ruin it for the good ones that are there for the kids and give their time to their job. i agree that bad teachers should not get to stay because they have been there 20 years and a 5 year teacher who is better should get cut due to budget crunches. no job place is perfect but employees should still have some type of rights and unions helped teachers. unions are not right for every job but in this case i do believe so.

the fact that you don't see those issues does not mean that don't exist. have you ever had an 8 year old bring in marijuana and hide it in their shoe? how about one bring in a knife and threaten to kill another student? these are 8 & 9 year old kids that are doing things alot of adults from my area would never think of. no one goes into a job expecting that kind of thing except a cop.

[Courtdad1998]

I'm not 100% certain on what criteria raises should be awarded, but I am certain that it shouldn't be a given that they automaticaly are, nor should those not deserving receive one. The current system too often rewards those that have become lazy and complacent. It has also made it nearly impossible to get rid of such teachers. As mentioned, the administrators know who puts forth the effort and who does not. We act like it's some magical formula that needs to be scrutinized in order to decide who is and isn't worthy of a raise. As in any worklplace, everyone knows who does and doesnt do their job. Schools aren't any different.

I'm not really going to spend any time addressing the other issues you mentioned. Yes, things happen, but it really is off the subject. Every job has it's lowpoints.

[slice slice baby]

Very great discussion & also very interesting how evenly divided the voting has remained throughout the voting....

[DAWG_ALICIOUS]

Teachers Administrators are already underpaid grossly overpaid and have been for years.

THIS is the root of the problem, not the teachers (unless they're double-dippers). Ban double-dipping at all levels.

Edited by DAWG_ALICIOUS, 03 March 2011 - 06:49 PM.

[Courtdad1998]

THIS is the root of the problem, not the teachers (unless they're double-dippers). Ban double-dipping at all levels.

I agree that some administrators are overpaid and I don't begrudge the pay that good teachers receive. It does however chap my rear end to see a teacher that has no reason still being in the classroom getting paid $60k+.... and then their pension when they are finally put out to pasture. I also disagree with double dipping. If you want to retire, retire. Let someone else have a shot at the job.

[tigerball13]

I don't see how you can be for a bill that takes away all the power from the teachers. There will no longer be collective bargaining, so they'll get paid whatever the overpaid administration wants to pay them...

[ADog]

Not a teacher but have 6 nephews and nieces that are in the teaching field and a sis in law that is a teacher. 2 of them coach in different sports, 1 teaches autistic children, 1 teaches in a private school, rest public.....and listening to them talk "shop" at family functions...the 1 comment that I remember more than anything is when one of them commented that when they tried to set up a " parent/teacher conference" that the parent told them.."why? its your job to teach them" and the parent/s never showed up for the meeting. Now I know what I just stated does not really pertain to this thread but it does tie in to it. All of my family members that teach are in the union except for the one who teaches in the private school. The administrators at the public schools only look at the test scores to evaluate their performance. These family members all put their heart and soul into their jobs and for Governor Kasich to say they do not have the right to collective bargaining is a farce. Yes they make decent money(after teaching a good number of years and continuing their education on their dime) and good retirement (except for the private school teacher). It is not always the teachers fault that tests scores are low.....is that reason enough to pay lower wages/retirement?

Edit: least we forget this SB #5 will also affect firefighters, police officers, state workers, county workers etc. This is basically trying to take away rights of a person to effectively bargain for wages, benefits etc. Another case of big brother putting the American people under their thumb...................

Edited by ADog, 03 March 2011 - 07:43 PM.

[Courtdad1998]

I don't see how you can be for a bill that takes away all the power from the teachers. There will no longer be collective bargaining, so they'll get paid whatever the overpaid administration wants to pay them...

I'm not pro union, that's why.

[DAWG_ALICIOUS]

...takes away all the power from the teachers.

Herein lies another problem. Why do teachers feel like they are entitled to "power".

Edited by DAWG_ALICIOUS, 03 March 2011 - 07:52 PM.

[Courtdad1998]

Without to many details, may I ask what you do for a living?

Short answer is sales. No one seems to get or really care much about the detailed answer.

[ADog]

I don't see how you can be for a bill that takes away all the power rights from the teachers.

Herein lies another problem. Why do teachers feel like they are entitled to "power rights".

There .......fixed

[Courtdad1998]

If they feel their rights are being violated, there is an easy solution...... Anyone unhappy with their job, pay or benefits has the right to quit and find another job.

[DAWG_ALICIOUS]

There .......fixed

Don'tcha wish it were that easy!

[ADog]

Don'tcha wish it were that easy!

LOL so true........

[flounder]

I really feel bad for the teachers....I know they get health care and have a very good retirement, but I still feel they are under paid....why....because of the parents...there are many parents out there that feel their child's education is totally the responsibility of the teachers....most parents still have not figured things out, thus they only add to the problem...many parents do not give the child any help at home...they just put it all on the teacher.....

Many teachers entered the field of education because of the excellent retirement....man, what a kick in the b*lls now for those teachers......retirement is one of the benefits for a teacher....who knows how to solve the issues of the teacher....I do know, that our future is our children, and the teacher is responsible for this, so I sure as hell hope someone makes the right decisions....

I think we are in this situation now because of the strength of the unions that represented GM, Ford, Chrysler, and the mining industry....unions had their day, but they are largely responsible for our great country's problems...why do you think factories and many other industries are moving out of the USA.......it is because of the unions!!!!!!!

[ADog]

Flounder, I respectively disagree....unions are not the reason why our jobs are moving out of the USA. The reason our jobs are leaving is because corporations get away with paying dollars per day per workers, no health care to workers, no safety regulations, EPA regulations to abide to, and guess what..those workers cannot even afford to buy the products they are making. You have CEO's making millions of dollars in bonuses, but yet their companies continue to lose money....yep that is the american way...fail and get rewarded...but by god don't even think about trying to negotiate a decent wage, health care etc because employees should not have that right......the way things are going in this country there will be only 2 kinds of people......rich and then those who the rich scorn and expect to serve them

[flounder]

ADog......I agree with you also, and I am not completely against unions....I just feel they have got out of control.....because the unions stand behind workers who do not want to work or even care about their fellow employees, we have a problem of under achieving..so to speak....I heard it all the time from employees at Ford and GM...."hell, we don't have to work because our union will have our back"......when you have workers with this attitude(who should not be even working).....it is understandable why jobs are leaving this country......also, wages have got out of hand....wonder why.....high wages with lazy a$$ employees backed by the union with those same laborers bragging about not working and still getting high wages while they are slacking has something to say about unions......I am in agreement with you ADog about the CEO's and big wigs, but maybe we as the American public are getting the shaft by both!!!!!!

[Courtdad1998]

I have heard on more than one occassion in this area of employees being offered a pay cut or the company was going to move. In nearly every instance, the unionized workers chose to hold fast and watch the jobs go bye bye rather than take a pay cut. Now they complain that they can't find jobs. Sad part is, I am sure there were tons of people that would have gladly stepped up and taken those jobs at the offered wage, but since it was a "union shop", that wasn't an option. Good luck with it. Unions and inflated benefits are strangling this country. Time to give em the boot.