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Tournament officiating and coaching.


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#1 FlightCrew

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 07:41 PM

I've been to multiple tournament games this year and so far I've seen good officiating and good coaching.
That said I did have a couple minor head scratchers yesterday.

In Princeton - Lakota East game, in a tie game, an official called a shooting foul with .5 sec in the game. Kid went to the line ... ballgame. Kinda disappointed to see that.

In same game Lakota East coach takes his point guard out for a good 5 minutes at the end of the game following a technical. Totally cost Lakota East imo.


#2 von

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 07:54 PM

As a former official, I would never call a foul with a half a second left if the game was tied.

#3 paperboy

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 08:22 PM

View Postvon, on 11 March 2018 - 07:54 PM, said:

As a former official, I would never call a foul with a half a second left if the game was tied.

If that’s the case, thank you for hanging up your whistle.

Just one question, though: did you inform both teams that they could hack the shooters with impunity in the final seconds?

#4 Mysterio

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 09:09 PM

A foul is a foul. I know thereís this ďunwritten ruleĒ that officials dont wanna call something at the end of a game but a foul is a foul especially if itís obvious.
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#5 flounder

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 09:10 PM

View Postpaperboy, on 11 March 2018 - 08:22 PM, said:



If thatís the case, thank you for hanging up your whistle.

Just one question, though: did you inform both teams that they could hack the shooters with impunity in the final seconds?

Von...

Many referees feel the same as you and I have witnessed it many times in the past....most referees swallow the whistle in the final seconds......My only conclusion is that there were many other incidents that took place during the game that could have determined the outcome both by players and coaches, why should I as a referee make a critical call that determines the outcome of a game......especially with .5 left in a game.....good call Von!!!!!!

#6 Bobby

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 09:31 PM

View Postflounder, on 11 March 2018 - 09:10 PM, said:

Von...

Many referees feel the same as you and I have witnessed it many times in the past....most referees swallow the whistle in the final seconds......My only conclusion is that there were many other incidents that took place during the game that could have determined the outcome both by players and coaches, why should I as a referee make a critical call that determines the outcome of a game......especially with .5 left in a game.....good call Von!!!!!!

You're not determining the outcomes of a game. The player who commited the foul with .5 seconds left did that. Why would you make that call? Because it's the right call and that's your job. If you don't call the foul then you are determining the outcome of the game.

#7 FlightCrew

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 09:54 PM

View PostBobby, on 11 March 2018 - 09:31 PM, said:

You're not determining the outcomes of a game. The player who commited the foul with .5 seconds left did that. Why would you make that call? Because it's the right call and that's your job. If you don't call the foul then you are determining the outcome of the game.

Ehh ... long rebound to the left of the basket, kid caught and chucked up a high arcing prayer. Game deserved OT .....
Frank Vitt was who called it btw.

Edited by FlightCrew, 11 March 2018 - 09:56 PM.


#8 flounder

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 10:06 PM

View PostBobby, on 11 March 2018 - 09:31 PM, said:



You're not determining the outcomes of a game. The player who commited the foul with .5 seconds left did that. Why would you make that call? Because it's the right call and that's your job. If you don't call the foul then you are determining the outcome of the game.

So, do you actually think a official calls a perfect game and does not miss a call.....I agree...a foul is a foul...travel a travel....3 seconds is 3 seconds lmao...who calls 3seconds anymore.....not saying it is fair, but the way officials see things today isnít the way that we as fans see them.....total different mentality.......I remember sitting in the Elida Fieldhouse playing Wayne Trace when little Hap Lauer swallowed his whistle when there should have been a foul called....he immediately waved his hands and ran for the locker room.....Steve Hall was a senior and I felt the Jays got the shaft......the sun came up the next day and I have made it through hundreds of hs and college games....it is what it is.....ever make a mistake at your job.....sorry, let em decide it in OT!!!!!

#9 Mysterio

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 05:43 AM

Flounder i gotta side with Bobby on this one. I get officials make mistakes. Nobody is perfect I get that. But itís not the mistakes I have a problem with. Itís the officials deciding not to blow the whistle at the end of a game that I have a problem with. If that does happen thatís not them making a mistake, thatís them purposely doing that because they donít want to decide the game. But like Bobby said, they are. Either way someone is getting upset. But if I were to get upset, Iíd rather get upset over that call late over a no call that should have been.

Also thatís great you got over that bad call the next day, fans can do that. but those players and coaches donít necessarily get over that as quick. Their season ended and wonít get that back because of it. I have seen officials not call fouls or travels in the final seconds of a game down in state that determined the outcome of the game. Iíve seen text book fouls or hand balls inside the penalty box of a soccer game late that donít get called. Seasons are ruined, championships are lost. I can get behind a simple mistake or imperfection from an official but what we all have acknowledged is that they tend to swallow the whistle late and at that point itís no longer a mistake on their part.

Edited by Mysterio, 12 March 2018 - 06:56 AM.

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#10 waterloowonder

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 07:37 AM

I don't like seeing ticky tack fouls called at the end of a game, but a real foul has to be called. If not called, the referee is deciding the outcome of the game. Many times I have seen teams take a lead with 20 seconds to go when the ref calls a foul allowing them shoot free throws to get that lead. The other team should not be denied the same opportunity just because it is the end of the game.

Flounder: You brought up old Hap Lauer. I think it was the year after you were talking about when OG was playing WT at Elida in the Districts - Steve Hall's Sr. year. The place was a sellout and the fans were in a frenzy before the game. One team took the floor and their fans went crazy. A few minutes later the 2nd team (can't even remember which team it was) and they tried to circle the floor and Hap thru up a road block at half court and wouldn't let them do it. It was hilarious. Saw old Hap in a bar in Maumee last summer and he said he is still officiating.

Edited by waterloowonder, 12 March 2018 - 07:51 AM.


#11 FlightCrew

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 08:37 AM

As I said ... the game was TIED at the time ......

#12 charliesheen

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 08:45 AM

A foul is a foul.....it doesn't matter if it's 5 seconds into the game or with .5 left. It's a team's job to score points....and to score points you have to take a shot. If you take a shot and get fouled....your opportunity to score and win the game is taken away. To me, that's determining the outcome. Call the foul...make the kid hit the FT's....and let the player determine the outcome.

#13 flounder

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 09:01 AM

View Postwaterloowonder, on 12 March 2018 - 07:37 AM, said:

I don't like seeing ticky tack fouls called at the end of a game, but a real foul has to be called. If not called, the referee is deciding the outcome of the game. Many times I have seen teams take a lead with 20 seconds to go when the ref calls a foul allowing them shoot free throws to get that lead. The other team should not be denied the same opportunity just because it is the end of the game.

Flounder: You brought up old Hap Lauer. I think it was the year after you were talking about when OG was playing WT at Elida in the Districts - Steve Hall's Sr. year. The place was a sellout and the fans were in a frenzy before the game. One team took the floor and their fans went crazy. A few minutes later the 2nd team (can't even remember which team it was) and they tried to circle the floor and Hap thru up a road block at half court and wouldn't let them do it. It was hilarious. Saw old Hap in a bar in Maumee last summer and he said he is still officiating.

Waterloo....

Omg.. Hap is still officiating....thatís funny....yea, Hall must have been a junior the year when Hap had our game.....interesting.

Back to the officiating........I can agree with the really hard foul....almost flagrant foul being called, but the ticky tack foul that hasnít been called consistently is what I hate......basketball has turned into a very physical game.....I have witnessed games and I am sure most of you have as well where you could call a foul on almost every possession......and the fouls werenít of ticky tack nature......do we as fans want that......listen guys, I have a hard time with officiating as much as the other guy and actually have no problem with a official calling a foul at the end of the game........but it better be a foul and not some touch me not.....also better be reasonable.....and by that I mean could the player have even made a difference in the game if not fouled.

It is no longer just making a call with .5 seconds left in the game.....many circumstances come into play......if itís a foul then itís a foul you say......well in todayís game, tell me......what exactly is a foul.....it seems that once tournament time comes around they let them play.....much more physical. So teams must adapt with the physicality of the game if you want to compete......hence we go back to.........what is a foul......to me, it is being consistent the whole game........in the game that we are talking about with .5 seconds left and a foul was called if it was consistent with how the game was called then I have no problem......if it wasnít then donít blow the whistle........just how I feel!!!!

#14 flounder

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 09:06 AM

View PostFlightCrew, on 11 March 2018 - 09:54 PM, said:



Ehh ... long rebound to the left of the basket, kid caught and chucked up a high arcing prayer. Game deserved OT .....
Frank Vitt was who called it btw.

Flight....

You know I have witnessed games where Frank Vitt has been incredible as a official, but have seen the other side as well......we have had him at DSJ, but it has been awhile......it does surprise me a bit!!!!!!!

#15 Bobby

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 05:48 PM

View PostFlightCrew, on 11 March 2018 - 09:54 PM, said:

Ehh ... long rebound to the left of the basket, kid caught and chucked up a high arcing prayer. Game deserved OT .....
Frank Vitt was who called it btw.

Was he fouled? If yes, it has to be called no matter the situation.

View Postflounder, on 11 March 2018 - 10:06 PM, said:

So, do you actually think a official calls a perfect game and does not miss a call.....I agree...a foul is a foul...travel a travel....3 seconds is 3 seconds lmao...who calls 3seconds anymore.....not saying it is fair, but the way officials see things today isn't the way that we as fans see them.....total different mentality.......I remember sitting in the Elida Fieldhouse playing Wayne Trace when little Hap Lauer swallowed his whistle when there should have been a foul called....he immediately waved his hands and ran for the locker room.....Steve Hall was a senior and I felt the Jays got the shaft......the sun came up the next day and I have made it through hundreds of hs and college games....it is what it is.....ever make a mistake at your job.....sorry, let em decide it in OT!!!!!

Not talking about mistakes. Those happen. I'm talking about officials making the decision to not make a call because of the situation. Never acceptable. If it was a foul .5 seconds into the game it's also a foul with .5 seconds left in the game.

I have to agree about officiating today. The game is WAY too physical and the officials could easily change that. If they need to call a foul on every play, do it. Eventually the coach and players will learn what is and isn't acceptable. Start it in scrimmages so teams know. And just be consistent quarter to quarter, game to game. When DSJ played New Bremen it was akin to a back alley knife fight. Two weeks later the game was touch me not.

#16 flounder

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 06:51 PM

Exactly......consistency is the key word and also the definition of a foul which seems to be lost in todayís game!!!!!!

Also, see how attendance works out calling a foul on every play just to make an attempt at cleaning this mess up.....we all have our opinions and the refs have theirs and I am pretty sure neither of us are on the same page!!!!!!

#17 Bobby

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 07:34 PM

View Postflounder, on 12 March 2018 - 06:51 PM, said:

Exactly......consistency is the key word and also the definition of a foul which seems to be lost in today's game!!!!!!

Also, see how attendance works out calling a foul on every play just to make an attempt at cleaning this mess up.....we all have our opinions and the refs have theirs and I am pretty sure neither of us are on the same page!!!!!!

If "cleaning this mess up" means fewer 42-40 2ot games and more 65-62 games then I'll put up with it for as long as needed. I think most fans would. It would be amazing how fast coaches and players would adjust after they have four starters with 2 fouls each at the end of the first quarter for a couple games. Teams played with tighter officiating and did fine in the '70's and '80's. It would be refreshing to see actual basketball rather than WWE cage matches.

#18 flounder

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 08:05 PM

View PostBobby, on 12 March 2018 - 07:34 PM, said:



If "cleaning this mess up" means fewer 42-40 2ot games and more 65-62 games then I'll put up with it for as long as needed. I think most fans would. It would be amazing how fast coaches and players would adjust after they have four starters with 2 fouls each at the end of the first quarter for a couple games. Teams played with tighter officiating and did fine in the '70's and '80's. It would be refreshing to see actual basketball rather than WWE cage matches.

Bobby.....

I agree, but the high scoring games of the past are just pleasant memories, especially on the D 4 level......numbers are down in all the small schools and the best way to compete is limit possessions and stress playing great defense!!!!!

#19 von

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 10:54 PM

View Postflounder, on 12 March 2018 - 08:05 PM, said:

Bobby.....

I agree, but the high scoring games of the past are just pleasant memories, especially on the D 4 level......numbers are down in all the small schools and the best way to compete is limit possessions and stress playing great defense!!!!!

Thank you Paper BOY for your comments. I am sure you are a knowledgeable referee critic. You should try refereeing some time. You make loads of $, and you get to meet wonderful people like you.

#20 Mysterio

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 07:13 AM

View PostBobby, on 12 March 2018 - 07:34 PM, said:



If "cleaning this mess up" means fewer 42-40 2ot games and more 65-62 games then I'll put up with it for as long as needed. I think most fans would. It would be amazing how fast coaches and players would adjust after they have four starters with 2 fouls each at the end of the first quarter for a couple games. Teams played with tighter officiating and did fine in the '70's and '80's. It would be refreshing to see actual basketball rather than WWE cage matches.

I totally agree. I want officials to be consistent. Not well this is a foul during the season but not in tournament. High school basketball needs higher scoring games. Which is why I think a shot clock would help it. I know there are mixed opinions on that but it would at least eliminate the stall ball or the continuous isolation plays to waste time that results in lower scoring games. Yes it would rush shots but the coaches adjust and have to scheme to it. You will still have low scoring games sure but I think it increases its chance for higher scoring games than not. Definitely a debatable topic as we had before but Iím just adding to what Bobby said about higher scoring games perhaps. There are just many ways to look at it. But over all officiating needs to be more consistent thatís the big thing.

Edited by Mysterio, 13 March 2018 - 07:22 AM.

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