30 replies to this topic

[Hagen]

Common Sense, on 13 February 2017 - 04:59 PM, said:

... Someone mentioned earlier that basketball takes alot of skills. That is very true, this isn't a slight to the other sports, but basketball takes more fine motor skills than soccer and volleyball. Plus many girls don't like the contact of basketball. ...

This is an asinine statement & it is a slight to other sports. Scientifically, basketball and soccer are about equal & are very similar when it comes to fine motor skills. One uses hands, while the other uses feet. Two very similar sports at their core; both cardio-driven with sprinting intermittently. Dribbling, shooting, defending as well. There are plenty who can do both because they're good athletes & plenty who can only do one or the other.

Regarding contact, both have it, while several players in both sports avoid contact when presented in situations (there are plenty of basketball players who play "olé defense" & fade away while shooting). Both sports can "hide" lesser players on offense & we've all seen it done. We've seen guards who can't dribble or shoot but are responsible for guarding the best player, and posts whose only jobs are to block shots in a zone defense because they're tall. In soccer, you position someone next to a better player for immediate help, or play the "fast" kids up top and tell them to run by someone because they can't dribble and keep the ball in close space.

Edited by Hagen, 14 February 2017 - 10:33 AM.

[basketballstud]

Fall Ball, on 19 January 2017 - 02:36 PM, said:

It seems no program is immune to the problem with low numbers. Even perennial powers like Ottoville and Bath are struggling to field adequate high school numbers. Are there any area varsity girls coaches working with their school's youth/MS programs to try to figure out why so many girls are leaving basketball by the time they get to middle/high school?

Doesnt matter if we are a perennial power house. You have to kids play. But when there is only 43 girls and only 38 boys at Ottoville pretty hard to get a full JV and Varsiry Squads

[Common Sense]

Hagen, on 14 February 2017 - 10:30 AM, said:

This is an asinine statement & it is a slight to other sports. Scientifically, basketball and soccer are about equal & are very similar when it comes to fine motor skills. One uses hands, while the other uses feet. Two very similar sports at their core; both cardio-driven with sprinting intermittently. Dribbling, shooting, defending as well. There are plenty who can do both because they're good athletes & plenty who can only do one or the other.

Regarding contact, both have it, while several players in both sports avoid contact when presented in situations (there are plenty of basketball players who play "olé defense" & fade away while shooting). Both sports can "hide" lesser players on offense & we've all seen it done. We've seen guards who can't dribble or shoot but are responsible for guarding the best player, and posts whose only jobs are to block shots in a zone defense because they're tall. In soccer, you position someone next to a better player for immediate help, or play the "fast" kids up top and tell them to run by someone because they can't dribble and keep the ball in close space.

Well that didn't take long...and yes, I'll somewhat agree with your statement. But if soccer was that difficult, why is it the first sport that kids play. Basically, it's running and kicking, which kids begin doing at the age of 4. Yes, I realize it's a little more than that later, but with basketball, you have dribbling (with your hands, and both hands), passing, seeing the floor, rebounding, and we've not even got into shooting. How many ways can you kick a soccer ball? My point is the medium to higher level basketball player takes alot more work and commitment than it does in soccer and volleyball. There are just alot more specific motor skills that need refined to play the sport of basketball than most other sports.

[Bobby]

basketballstud, on 14 February 2017 - 01:39 PM, said:

Doesnt matter if we are a perennial power house. You have to kids play. But when there is only 43 girls and only 38 boys at Ottoville pretty hard to get a full JV and Varsiry Squads

According to the latest enrollment numbers, Ottoville has 46 boys and 43 girls in grades 9, 10 and 11 as of October 31, 2016.

http://ohsaa.org/sch...hool-enrollment

[basketballstud]

Bobby, on 14 February 2017 - 06:52 PM, said:

According to the latest enrollment numbers, Ottoville has 46 boys and 43 girls in grades 9, 10 and 11 as of October 31, 2016.

http://ohsaa.org/sch...hool-enrollment

http://officials.myo...utside/Schedule

was my source

[Common Sense]

basketballstud, on 14 February 2017 - 01:39 PM, said:

Doesnt matter if we are a perennial power house. You have to kids play. But when there is only 43 girls and only 38 boys at Ottoville pretty hard to get a full JV and Varsiry Squads

Enrollment is down somewhat, but really not significant from 30-40 years ago. This is just different times. The expectations of kids / parents are much different. There wasn't as much to do, and kids were expected to play for their hometown school. I think the equal play philosophy (which I support) that most youth programs use now has created a sense of entitlement. The "value" no longer is just being a member of a team, but it's attached to playing time. And in some cases, there are girls that start or get alot of playing time as freshmen and sophomores and then decide to abandon the program??? Here's a way to look at it. You have 7th and 8th grade teams who have 5 starters every year, so in grades 9-12, you should have up to 20 kids who started in their grade in jr. high. At minimum that's 20 kids for your program. Any less than that, there was some reason that kid decided basketball wasn't for them anymore.

[Hagen]

Common Sense, on 14 February 2017 - 04:56 PM, said:

Well that didn't take long...and yes, I'll somewhat agree with your statement. But if soccer was that difficult, why is it the first sport that kids play. Basically, it's running and kicking, which kids begin doing at the age of 4. Yes, I realize it's a little more than that later, but with basketball, you have dribbling (with your hands, and both hands), passing, seeing the floor, rebounding, and we've not even got into shooting. How many ways can you kick a soccer ball? My point is the medium to higher level basketball player takes alot more work and commitment than it does in soccer and volleyball. There are just alot more specific motor skills that need refined to play the sport of basketball than most other sports.

Because humans develop the ability to walk before they develop significant arm coordination. Put a ball in front of a children and they run into it, not really with any other specific purpose. It doesn't constitute an athletic sports move. A child can throw a baseball at age 4, does that mean there's athletic purpose behind it? Not usually. Why do children begin playing on plastic hoops 2'-3' tall and not 10'? The human body does not all grow at the same rate. Go to YouTube, there are plenty of young "prodigies" who can barely stand, but swish bucket after bucket on a small hoop.

Soccer (when done correctly): "dribbling with both" feet, "seeing the field," "rebounding missed shots," transitioning, and yes, even shooting correctly is a skill. To answer your question: ways you kick a ball: inside/outside, bend/straight, rise/drop/knuckle. I'd love to see if you can really bend a ball over a wall.

Your point is one built out of ignorance. You comparing high school basketball players to 4-year-olds proves that. Quit repeating your last sentence unless you're willing to place facts with it. Repeating it doesn't make it true. I've given you proof of useful basketball players who can't shoot or dribble but display simple athletic qualities that can help a team, especially defensively, just like nearly every sport.

Fostoria St. Wendelin had the D4 state player of the year last year who didn't dribble or shoot outside of 3 feet, except for free throws. They nearly won a state championship with their entire game plan built around her. She was gifted with great size and she played to her strengths. Don't tell me you need to be a great basketball player by doing everything correctly.

To be a medium to high level athlete in any sport takes significant work and commitment. If you disagree, please show me the data to quantify "a lot more work."

Edited by Hagen, 15 February 2017 - 10:24 AM.

[flounder]

I really feel that at this point in time we are not going to change the current course of girls high school basketball.....the train has started and it is out of control.....so many things have changed, but it really started falling apart in the last 10-15 years....our small communities are not the only ones immune to it as I see the same things happening in D 1 schools in Cbus. I have followed HS sports my entire life and have had sons and daughters play HS sports and I will mention what I think is part of the problem.....please respond if you feel like it and don't worry.....I have thick skin......

I won't blame them entirely as I know they mean well, but parents are part of the problem....man, the $hit I see these days that the parents do and say is insane....let the kids alone....it's supposed to be fun, not pressure filled because your daughter doesn't perform up to your expectations every game. A great player at the high school level is not going to perform to the maximum level game in and game out.....if a player is catching it at home before games and after, that doesn't sound like fun to me....I know some talented players that have gone through this type of situation....some stayed, but many quit....and some of the ones who stayed wished they had quit......parents......leave your daughters alone and encourage them and try not to relish on all their mistakes....they are kids just learning the system let the coaches do the coaching....... and contrary to what you as a parent feel, little Mary will probably not get any college looks....I could relate some great stories on that also......

AAU and all other club sports have really put a hit on high school sports.....girls who come out of a successful high school program are not immune to this travesty......Bob Arnzen once told me that he didn't care if they played AAU basketball or not....he just wanted them shooting and working on their skills....what AAU and club sports have done is break up the family and unity of the high school team one belongs to.....the girl makes friends and decides she would rather just play AAU and club sports....this also comes as encouragement from.....you guessed it....the parents....another big factor is you will get recognition on this level quicker than you will playing high school sports.....I think the girls who don't play AAU and club sports feel the pinch more as they feel that if they aren't good enough to play AAU or club sports then why go out for HS ball......hence they quit.

America is really changing....and I am not talking about just the politics of it....there are many things for HS girls to do now that are so much more fun than working hard at playing any sport....as a parent you just hope they grow to be responsible and caring adults and I feel playing sports contributes to that.....the small schools need the vast majority of students to participate in HS sports......from what I have seen these past 10-15 years, I don't see that happening.....I think the trend continues and eventually HS basketball, softball,and whatever high school sport there is in the small school as well as some larger schools will die and forever be gone....and that my friends will be sad!!!!!!

[Common Sense]

Hagen, on 15 February 2017 - 10:22 AM, said:

Because humans develop the ability to walk before they develop significant arm coordination. Put a ball in front of a children and they run into it, not really with any other specific purpose. It doesn't constitute an athletic sports move. A child can throw a baseball at age 4, does that mean there's athletic purpose behind it? Not usually. Why do children begin playing on plastic hoops 2'-3' tall and not 10'? The human body does not all grow at the same rate. Go to YouTube, there are plenty of young "prodigies" who can barely stand, but swish bucket after bucket on a small hoop.

Soccer (when done correctly): "dribbling with both" feet, "seeing the field," "rebounding missed shots," transitioning, and yes, even shooting correctly is a skill. To answer your question: ways you kick a ball: inside/outside, bend/straight, rise/drop/knuckle. I'd love to see if you can really bend a ball over a wall.

Your point is one built out of ignorance. You comparing high school basketball players to 4-year-olds proves that. Quit repeating your last sentence unless you're willing to place facts with it. Repeating it doesn't make it true. I've given you proof of useful basketball players who can't shoot or dribble but display simple athletic qualities that can help a team, especially defensively, just like nearly every sport.

Fostoria St. Wendelin had the D4 state player of the year last year who didn't dribble or shoot outside of 3 feet, except for free throws. They nearly won a state championship with their entire game plan built around her. She was gifted with great size and she played to her strengths. Don't tell me you need to be a great basketball player by doing everything correctly.

To be a medium to high level athlete in any sport takes significant work and commitment. If you disagree, please show me the data to quantify "a lot more work."

Great points, and this points to the best thing about this...these are TEAM sports. You can take a kid very gifted around the basket and mold a team around her and be successful. Now I'd contend that there was at least 4 others on the team who had to pick up her deficiencies in ball handling/ guarding on the floor,etc. to be successful.

I'd love to see the average high school kid bend a ball over a wall. I think you are jumping to a conclusion that this is a simple thing all high school kids can do. Some kids can dunk a basketball, it really doesn't take alot of skill other than getting above the rim.

Don't get me wrong, I think every sport, when you dig deep, has it's specialities. I'm a baseball guy. The novice person just thinks the pitcher throw the ball over the plate. But we in the business know that "good" pitchers move the ball in and out, change speeds and throw curve balls. It's not just throwing the ball.

I'm just saying IMO...IMO, that the shrinking number of girls basketball players is due to the level of commitment it takes from a time standpoint to become semi-proficient at basketball skills.

[Common Sense]

flounder, on 15 February 2017 - 11:25 AM, said:

I really feel that at this point in time we are not going to change the current course of girls high school basketball.....the train has started and it is out of control.....so many things have changed, but it really started falling apart in the last 10-15 years....our small communities are not the only ones immune to it as I see the same things happening in D 1 schools in Cbus. I have followed HS sports my entire life and have had sons and daughters play HS sports and I will mention what I think is part of the problem.....please respond if you feel like it and don't worry.....I have thick skin......

I won't blame them entirely as I know they mean well, but parents are part of the problem....man, the $hit I see these days that the parents do and say is insane....let the kids alone....it's supposed to be fun, not pressure filled because your daughter doesn't perform up to your expectations every game. A great player at the high school level is not going to perform to the maximum level game in and game out.....if a player is catching it at home before games and after, that doesn't sound like fun to me....I know some talented players that have gone through this type of situation....some stayed, but many quit....and some of the ones who stayed wished they had quit......parents......leave your daughters alone and encourage them and try not to relish on all their mistakes....they are kids just learning the system let the coaches do the coaching....... and contrary to what you as a parent feel, little Mary will probably not get any college looks....I could relate some great stories on that also......

AAU and all other club sports have really put a hit on high school sports.....girls who come out of a successful high school program are not immune to this travesty......Bob Arnzen once told me that he didn't care if they played AAU basketball or not....he just wanted them shooting and working on their skills....what AAU and club sports have done is break up the family and unity of the high school team one belongs to.....the girl makes friends and decides she would rather just play AAU and club sports....this also comes as encouragement from.....you guessed it....the parents....another big factor is you will get recognition on this level quicker than you will playing high school sports.....I think the girls who don't play AAU and club sports feel the pinch more as they feel that if they aren't good enough to play AAU or club sports then why go out for HS ball......hence they quit.

America is really changing....and I am not talking about just the politics of it....there are many things for HS girls to do now that are so much more fun than working hard at playing any sport....as a parent you just hope they grow to be responsible and caring adults and I feel playing sports contributes to that.....the small schools need the vast majority of students to participate in HS sports......from what I have seen these past 10-15 years, I don't see that happening.....I think the trend continues and eventually HS basketball, softball,and whatever high school sport there is in the small school as well as some larger schools will die and forever be gone....and that my friends will be sad!!!!!!

All very good points, and there are many things go blame. But I'm going to stand up for parents for a minute. We knock kids because they don't have parenting or have very little of it, and we knock them when there is too much. I'd rather have an over involved parent than under involved. Especially when it comes to girls and sports. I've always said girls sweet spot for sports is about ages 12-15. It seems like alot of girls get tired of the sports world, I think we've pressed this forward by starting competitive sports at early ages. By the time these girls are 15, they are tired of it and just want to be a student, have a job, hang with friends, etc. I think it was easier 20-30 years ago because we didn't do the annual stuff, you just played the sport in season and that was it. Now, some of these kids are expected, if not playing another sport, to be working on their games during the off season, summer is a whole other mess. Multi sport kids get killed in the summer, June is awful. That unfortunately won't change.

At the root, girls sports are social, if the girl does not like her teammates, they won't play, period. Guys like competition and will work through that, but girls won't. They'd rather no play than be part of a team with girls they don't get along with. Individual sports like tennis, swimming and track are grabbing alot of these kids because there are no teammates. AAU/ Club sports play right into this. Girls can be friend with kids they only see on weekends or occasionally. When you go to school all day with the same people/ have practice and games with them day after day, week after week, month after month, it can become a drag.

And finally, one thing that does not come up, is AAU/ club/ travel kind of separates itself from classes of people. It's the "country club" mentality and some people like that.

[woodynbo]

flounder, on 15 February 2017 - 11:25 AM, said:

I really feel that at this point in time we are not going to change the current course of girls high school basketball.....the train has started and it is out of control.....so many things have changed, but it really started falling apart in the last 10-15 years....our small communities are not the only ones immune to it as I see the same things happening in D 1 schools in Cbus. I have followed HS sports my entire life and have had sons and daughters play HS sports and I will mention what I think is part of the problem.....please respond if you feel like it and don't worry.....I have thick skin......

I won't blame them entirely as I know they mean well, but parents are part of the problem....man, the $hit I see these days that the parents do and say is insane....let the kids alone....it's supposed to be fun, not pressure filled because your daughter doesn't perform up to your expectations every game. A great player at the high school level is not going to perform to the maximum level game in and game out.....if a player is catching it at home before games and after, that doesn't sound like fun to me....I know some talented players that have gone through this type of situation....some stayed, but many quit....and some of the ones who stayed wished they had quit......parents......leave your daughters alone and encourage them and try not to relish on all their mistakes....they are kids just learning the system let the coaches do the coaching....... and contrary to what you as a parent feel, little Mary will probably not get any college looks....I could relate some great stories on that also......

AAU and all other club sports have really put a hit on high school sports.....girls who come out of a successful high school program are not immune to this travesty......Bob Arnzen once told me that he didn't care if they played AAU basketball or not....he just wanted them shooting and working on their skills....what AAU and club sports have done is break up the family and unity of the high school team one belongs to.....the girl makes friends and decides she would rather just play AAU and club sports....this also comes as encouragement from.....you guessed it....the parents....another big factor is you will get recognition on this level quicker than you will playing high school sports.....I think the girls who don't play AAU and club sports feel the pinch more as they feel that if they aren't good enough to play AAU or club sports then why go out for HS ball......hence they quit.

America is really changing....and I am not talking about just the politics of it....there are many things for HS girls to do now that are so much more fun than working hard at playing any sport....as a parent you just hope they grow to be responsible and caring adults and I feel playing sports contributes to that.....the small schools need the vast majority of students to participate in HS sports......from what I have seen these past 10-15 years, I don't see that happening.....I think the trend continues and eventually HS basketball, softball,and whatever high school sport there is in the small school as well as some larger schools will die and forever be gone....and that my friends will be sad!!!!!!

Amen