19 replies to this topic

[PirateFan9]

Bluffton 2, OG 1.

[DawgDad57]

Thats a great win for the Pirates. Sounds like it was a great game!

[PirateFan9]

DawgDad57, on 02 October 2015 - 05:19 AM, said:

Thats a great win for the Pirates. Sounds like it was a great game!

It was good -- a scoreless first half, but with nice back-and-forth action, and plenty of excitement in the second half. Both teams played hard, but for the most part kept their tempers in check.

Apparently the loss hit the OG fans pretty hard. After the game, when the Titans came across the field after shaking hands, there was no one left to applaud for them.

Although I should have long ago stopped being surprised by this, I have to wonder who kept the stats that were sent to the Lima News and the Courier. According to them, Bluffton had 14 SOG and OG had 12, but Bluffton keeper Levi Smith only had 4 saves, and the OG keeper Mike Bowers only had 6. (Both teams played some good defense, but there were definitely not a total of 13 non-keeper saves in that game.) The parent who keeps stats for us had a more realistic count of 10-5 (Pirates-Titans), with 3 saves for Smith and 7 saves for Bowers.

[ToffeeMan]

Pirate Fan...that's ALWAYS bugged me as well. A SOG is ONLY a SOG if it has a chance to score (and by that reasoning, shots off the post don't count as SOGs). SO, it's either a goal or a save. With that in mind, a GK's saves should ALWAYS be the difference between SOGs & actual goals.

It also always amazes me how GKs can have MORE saves than actual SOGs...meaning stat keepers are counting crosses caught as saves or just anytime they handle the ball. A few years ago a kid from a local school crushed the State Saves in Game & Saves in a Season records (came close to some national records as well)...but when you broke the math down he'd have to have been making a save every 1.5 minutes (or something like that...I'm not a smart man).

Thanks for allowing me to start the day with a rant!

[PirateFan9]

ToffeeMan, on 02 October 2015 - 06:49 AM, said:

... a GK's saves should ALWAYS be the difference between SOGs & actual goals.

Isn't there the possibility of a save by another defender? (Or have I been mistaken in my understanding of that statistic?) E.g. in last night's game, a ball got past our keeper and was still moving (albeit not too fast) toward the goal, so a defender kicked it away. I think that accounts for the "missing" save:

5 SOGs from OG = 1 goal + 3 saves by Smith + 1 non-keeper save

ToffeeMan said:

Thanks for allowing me to start the day with a rant!

You're welcome!

[DawgDad57]

I know that there are so many other stats that just aren't recorded. Block shots, crosses collected, and even SOGs. I'm guessing that most stats people say that a shot that is blocked even at the top of the 18, is being counted as a SOG. I do stats as well and I'm pretty stingey (sp?) with them all. Some even count wayward crosses as SOGs too.

[Mysterio]

Ya I do the stats as well and it bothers me when I see the time keeper count all these shots that really are not SOG. I sometimes come across people counting a poorly kicked ball that just rolled its way to the goal and the keeper picks it up as a SOG. As to what Priate fan said, I don't count when a defender makes a save in the goal, I treat that as if they simply blocked a shot. I think some people just don't have a clue on what a legit SOG is.

[PirateFan9]

Mysterio, on 02 October 2015 - 09:18 AM, said:

... As to what Priate fan said, I don't count when a defender makes a save in the goal, I treat that as if they simply blocked a shot.

Since this conversation is much more interesting than grading papers, I could not resist googling "can a defender make a save in soccer" and found the following in the NCAA "Official Soccer Statistics Rules" (http://fs.ncaa.org/D...ccer/2009ez.pdf)

Quote

A shot on goal is a shot that is on net. The results of a shot on goal must be either a save by the goalkeeper or defending team or a goal by the attacking team. A shot that hits the post or crossbar without being deflected by a goalkeeper or defender and does not cross the goal line is not a shot on goal.

The bold part (emphasis added) seems to suggest that defenders can be credited with saves. The rest confirms what we savvy soccer fans already know about the distinction between shots and SOGs.

[Gview]

PirateFan9, on 02 October 2015 - 09:46 AM, said:

Since this conversation is much more interesting than grading papers, I could not resist googling "can a defender make a save in soccer" and found the following in the NCAA "Official Soccer Statistics Rules" (http://fs.ncaa.org/D...ccer/2009ez.pdf)

The bold part (emphasis added) seems to suggest that defenders can be credited with saves. The rest confirms what we savvy soccer fans already know about the distinction between shots and SOGs.

Yes, it's called a Non-Goalie Save.

[Rockman]

In defense of the stats that were submitted, if indeed they were the O-G stats. Some schools do track shots, not only SOG. However when different news agencies ask they may ask for SOG. Thus the discrepancy!

[Mysterio]

You know whats interesting when I read that link that you posted is that a shot that hits the cross bar or side post is not considered a SOG unless it was deflected by the keeper or defender. Something I learned there. Anyways they need to expand the soccer scoring book. They need to add a defensive player save and add a section where there are shots and shots on goal. I've been starting to keep track of actual shots as well which gives me an idea of our scoring chances.

Edited by Mysterio, 02 October 2015 - 01:37 PM.

[ToffeeMan]

Pirate... I forgot all about non-goalie save & did not account for that in my rant...I should know better growing up watching the King Of Non-Goalie Saves at Findlay HS- Lance McCabe!

[PirateFan9]

ToffeeMan, on 02 October 2015 - 02:27 PM, said:

Pirate... I forgot all about non-goalie save & did not account for that in my rant...I should know better growing up watching the King Of Non-Goalie Saves at Findlay HS- Lance McCabe!

No problem -- I was perplexed when you left that out of your statement, because I suddenly wondered if I had been misinformed over the years, but I can understand how you'd miss a minor detail when you're in the middle of a good rant.

Edited by PirateFan9, 02 October 2015 - 02:55 PM.

[General Tso]

Sounds like some of the soccer stats should have asterisks beside them.

[Hagen]

Mysterio, on 02 October 2015 - 01:37 PM, said:

... Anyways they need to expand the soccer scoring book. They need to add a defensive player save and add a section where there are shots and shots on goal. I've been starting to keep track of actual shots as well which gives me an idea of our scoring chances.

Nothing prevents teams from submitting or keeping track of those stats, however, most area high schools don't have enough people to track all of those stats accurately. Most schools only track SOG, SVs, Corners because that's what their stat person can reasonably handle. Secondary stats like steals & intercepts are often next (although those are subjective like a SOG vs bad cross going on frame). For most smaller schools, there just isn't enough help to keep track of all the stats accurately, especially when stats person is often volunteer parent or student manager (not bashing, just stating that most parents just enjoy watching their kids play & not worry about keeping stats, while there are exceptions for sure). It's never too late to add a stat to the record book (ie: football with sacks or basketball with blocks), however, how accurate/inflated they are is another story (much like the saves records already are).

Edited by Hagen, 03 October 2015 - 07:04 AM.

[DawgDad57]

Does the OSSCA have any guidelines or anything that would help to standardize the definitions of the stats?

[Mysterio]

Personally I think they need to keep track of more stats like for instance Shots as opposed to just SOG. I think sometimes you get a better idea of how dominant or close a game really is by adding that.

[Gview]

DawgDad57, on 03 October 2015 - 02:21 PM, said:

Does the OSSCA have any guidelines or anything that would help to standardize the definitions of the stats?

Google "ncaa soccer statistician manual". I'm not aware of a High School version.

[PirateFan9]

Gview, on 05 October 2015 - 08:31 AM, said:

Google "ncaa soccer statistician manual". I'm not aware of a High School version.

The Iowa high school soccer stats guide appears to be copied/adapted from the NCAA manual. https://www.iahsaa.o...rstatmanual.pdf

By the way, I linked to the 2009 NCAA manual above; the 2015 manual is here: http://fs.ncaa.org/D...ccer/2015EZ.pdf

[formercoach]

I'm pretty sure that a newspaper guy recorded Ada as having 69 shots in a tourney game against Crestview a few years back. We pounded the goal, but not sure it was that much. Wes Auld was the keeper, and though he was a giant, he didn't stop that many. Yet, someone stuck it in the OHSAA record book.