16 replies to this topic

[NW Ohio Guy]

Pandora-Gilboa Swept the tournament as both 7th and 8th grade teams were champions:

7th Grade: Pandora-Gilboa defeated Arlington by +/- 10pts
8th Grade: Pandora-Gilboa defeated Liberty-Benton, doubling L-B 42-21

Maybe Pandora will have its time once again?

[Common Sense]

Thanks for posting NW Ohio Guy, can't believe no one cares enough to put any of these results in the paper or on here ( other than you). PG needs an influx of talent desperately. Don't mean to be mean but combined varsity/ JV some of the weakest talent around and they had several seniors. Some of these 8th graders may get a chance to play right away in high school.

[JohnMcClane]

Hopefully the Pandora fans keep their expectations in check. Junior High success doesn’t always equal into success on the Varsity level. A lot can change in 4 years’ time.

[Coach]

Jr. High games are like comparing apples to oranges. Can they be a good indicator of what is ahead? Yes but it usually depends on a lot of variables. Most coaches at the Jr. High level are young and just starting out. Therefore winning is everything at this level. My questions would be:
Do they PRESS the whole game?
How many players get playing MEANINGFUL playing time?
Do they run the same basic offense and defense the VARSITY uses?
Do they actually do basic breakdown SKILLS in practices? Triple threat (post and guards are different) ball side arm, go left, go right, bow out, heel pivots, shot fake, ball fake, etc.
I have seen too many Jr. Team’s look great and fall apart in varsity programs because of lacking some of the things above.

Way too much emphasis on WINNING instead of the things that are relevant down the road. When you find the coach at the Jr. level that understands what is the real reason you have a Jr. High program, then it is where you will find success at the varsity level. If you can do all these things and still win, that is a big bonus!

I know a coach who actually lost games that he could have won by substituting and playing kids that were not the best. He's wife thought he was crazy by not playing to win. His wife didn't understand the real purpose of the program!

Edited by Coach, 24 February 2014 - 10:11 AM.

[Louisville Slugger]

The only people who say there is too much emphasis on winning are the losers

[Common Sense]

John McClane and Coach, while I'd agree, jr. high success doesn't always translate into varsity success, you typically are at least competitive. Looking back, I can't think of a jr. high team that won the BVC tournament or even got into the finals that was a 4-5 win team as seniors. The bad teams in jr. high are typically bad teams in high school. And also understand your thoughts on winning. But winning is contagious just as losing is. There are programs in the area who just don't compete, they are beat when they step on the floor. Some of that is from the "equal play" mentality that starts with youth sports.

[dw629]

 Coach, on 24 February 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

Jr. High games are like comparing apples to oranges. Can they be a good indicator of what is ahead? Yes but it usually depends on a lot of variables. Most coaches at the Jr. High level are young and just starting out. Therefore winning is everything at this level. My questions would be:
Do they PRESS the whole game?
How many players get playing MEANINGFUL playing time?
Do they run the same basic offense and defense the VARSITY uses?
Do they actually do basic breakdown SKILLS in practices? Triple threat (post and guards are different) ball side arm, go left, go right, bow out, heel pivots, shot fake, ball fake, etc.
I have seen too many Jr. Team’s look great and fall apart in varsity programs because of lacking some of the things above.

Way too much emphasis on WINNING instead of the things that are relevant down the road. When you find the coach at the Jr. level that understands what is the real reason you have a Jr. High program, then it is where you will find success at the varsity level. If you can do all these things and still win, that is a big bonus!

I know a coach who actually lost games that he could have won by substituting and playing kids that were not the best. He's wife thought he was crazy by not playing to win. His wife didn't understand the real purpose of the program!

A high school coach's dream youth and middle school program coordinator( football, basketball or baseball)

[dw629]

 Louisville Slugger, on 24 February 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

The only people who say there is too much emphasis on winning are the losers

A high school coach's nightmare youth and middle school program coordinator. Also 9/10 times reality of youth coaches mentality.

[Coach]

Some people just don't get it!

[Louisville Slugger]

This was a tournament ??? Why do you play the game?? You play the game to win !!! That's it!! If I'm a varsity I want the winners and 95% of coaches feel the same way. This was a tournament !!!!!!

[LimaJock]

Tournament, play to win. Season, play to develop. SEASON: A JR high coach should try to play all 12 [not even minutes, just some each half] and win by 5. More meaningful for everyone on team. Same game could of been win by 25 and play bottom 5 last 3 minutes. I know which coach I want as a head coach, parent, and player. Also, if you don't see same [most] plays and defense 7 thru varsity, then something is wrong.

LJ

[Common Sense]

Completely agree Limajock, development should be the focus at the high school level, but I do feel winning should also be in there somewhere. Actually, I think one mistake made at the jr. high level is to have a starting 5, and a 2nd unit. Mix in a couple of your weaker players and have them come up to the level of the others. When you put in the 5 at the end of the bench at garbage time, it's a mess. No one can dribble or run anything. Mix it up.

[veteranlefty]

Developing a winning mentality is very important. I would think most coaches would rather have a group of kids who have won most of the time coming up than the alternative. Winning AND losing are both habit forming. Winning groups develop a hatred of losing that allows them to do a little extra when needed to avoid that "losing" feeling. While other groups come to accept losing and have a "here we go again mentality". Which group do you want on the floor at crunch time? This is a whole other topic but I think the "everyone plays and gets a trophy concept" is part of the weakening of our country. If you keep score then winning is important!! What's next....all kids get C's in every class so nobody feels bad??

[displacedrocket]

 JohnMcClane, on 24 February 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

Hopefully the Pandora fans keep their expectations in check. Junior High success doesn’t always equal into success on the Varsity level. A lot can change in 4 years’ time.

The problem at PG isn't high expectations, it's undermining their coaches. It is possible to have successful programs over many years, with exceptions yes, at small programs.
Successful programs don't have entitlement issues. Successful small programs ingratiate a good work ethic into the kids, and it starts at home. So many parents let their kids do whatever
they want with regards to sports and practicing. They don't equip their kids to be the best they can be and simply expect a coach to "fix" them. I'm not saying the answer is for parents
to force their kid to practice 3 hours a day. I'm saying encourage them and equip them to do what it takes to be the best. Some kids are inherently (no pun intended) going to be better,
but that doesn't mean that all kids can't stand to improve and that goes from the best to the worst on the team.

There is a culture in Pandora right now, and I don't know when it started, that everything is always the coach's fault. The coach didn't make him better, the coach didn't make the right call, the coach didn't play my kid enough. Honestly sometimes it is the coaches fault, but of recent years that hasn't been the case at PG in my opinion. When a parent undermines the coach especially in front of their children, it spawns an entitlement issue that is going to be hard for nearly any coach to overcome. At some point the parents have to take responsibility for equiping and pushing their kids even when they aren't at practice or games. They have to SUPPORT the coaches decisions with their kids and not undermine them by challenging their competence and authority in front of the kids. The support has to go all the way up to the BOE.

The only way this culture at PG will be broken is to bring someone in who has had success, and someone who is going to stand up to the helicopter parents.

Edited by displacedrocket, 24 February 2014 - 04:25 PM.

[LimaJock]

When I was much younger, I coached some jr. high. I had a written down rotation that kept one decent ball handler on the floor all the time. This would last until half time against good teams and maybe till end of third against avg or worse teams. After that it was whomever was getting the job done. It was time to win the game if possible. At end when game was in hand, then others [maybe 5 who didn't play much that game] came in to finish. So, I believe we played to win the entire game while getting most everyone decent meaningful minutes. I actually got more complaints from the most talented players parents. Go figure. I will also say that when I was a very very young coach this concept would of been thought of as crazy by ME and something I would of never done. Experience is a great teacher.

LJ

[mysteryman2014]

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[Common Sense]

I think it's important to note this isn't a Pandora issue, it goes on to a certain degree at every school. Poor programs have the same characteristics. Parents complaining, kids who don't work hard, coaches who don't put in the time, etc. Some is valid, some is not. Pandora apparently has some talent in the middle school, hopefully it translates into success at the high school level.