238 replies to this topic

[Rd2Glory]

paperboy, on 15 October 2012 - 11:05 PM, said:

Not sure I understand this. Take all the D4 teams and have them play each other and the cumulative record will be .500. Just like it would in D5 or D6. There are terrible teams and great teams in all divisions.



First of all, Versailles won the D4 title in 2003. Secondly, Versailles and Coldwater are the only MAC schools that have even PLAYED in D4. Of course they're the only schools that can 'make that case'.

Well that's obvious. I think what he's saying is that there are a lot more good teams in D4 than in D5 or D6. Therefore, it's harder to have sustained success in terms of playoff success. That's definitely true relative to D6 where there's really only 6 or 7 teams with a chance to win state in any given year. I'm not so sure it's as applicable to D5 (although no one is arguing that D5 football is better than D4 football, obviously).

Edit: You snuck your post in right before mine Jeffcat. I think my analysis was pretty accurate though!

Edited by Rd2Glory, 15 October 2012 - 11:16 PM.

[jeffcat-bucki]

Rd2Glory, on 15 October 2012 - 11:15 PM, said:

Well that's obvious. I think what he's saying is that there are a lot more good teams in D4 than in D5 or D6. Therefore, it's harder to have sustained success in terms of playoff success. That's definitely true relative to D6 where there's really only 6 or 7 teams with a chance to win state in any given year. I'm not so sure it's as applicable to D5 (although no one is arguing that D5 football is better than D4 football, obviously).

Spot on.

[BlueJay]

Rd2Glory, on 15 October 2012 - 11:15 PM, said:

Well that's obvious. I think what he's saying is that there are a lot more good teams in D4 than in D5 or D6. Therefore, it's harder to have sustained success in terms of playoff success. That's definitely true relative to D6 where there's really only 6 or 7 teams with a chance to win state in any given year.I'm not so sure it's as applicable to D5 (although no one is arguing that D5 football is better than D4 football, obviously).

Edit: You snuck your post in right before mine Jeffcat. I think my analysis was pretty accurate though!

That's really the case in D5 too. Coldwater, Ursuline, Kirtland, PH, and just a few more are the only legit contenders year in and year out so I don't know where you're going with that

[BlueJay]

Also we will find out what some top 5 WBL schools vs. the MAC will be like next year. DSJ plays Elida in 2013 (Bath in 2014), Coldwater plays Kenton, I'm pretty sure Versailles still has Celina, etc.

[BlueJay]

jeffcat-bucki, on 15 October 2012 - 10:23 PM, said:

Per Cal Preps

DSJ is by no means terrible this year, but Elida would defeat them rather soundly in my opinion. I can see somebody's case for Coldwater beating OG, but I think OG matches up well against Coldwater just like OG matches up well against Kenton and OG would win...just my opinion. Celina already smashed Versailles who beat ML by 10. Kenton only beating Minster by 1.....ummm...no. I mean that with zero disrespect to Minster too, but they would not hang with Kenton, especially at this stage of the season. Now I could definitely see Versailles beating Bath. I will give you that one, but why you have Bath in that mix instead of Wapak(who beat Bath soundly), is a bit confusing. Even so, I think Versailles and Wapak could be a toss up, but Wapak would probably be favored.

I had Bath in there because they are in the top 5 in league standings. That's how I did it.

And of course you're not going to give any games to the MAC. I wouldn't expect you to. The MAC could win state in every division and you'd still be unimpressed, saying how they're lucky to be there, how this team SHOULD have won state because they were better, etc.

[Rd2Glory]

BlueJay, on 16 October 2012 - 02:19 AM, said:

That's really the case in D5 too. Coldwater, Ursuline, Kirtland, PH, and just a few more are the only legit contenders year in and year out so I don't know where you're going with that

Well I would disagree with you on that. The reason is because half the schools in D6 have issues just putting a team on the field, much less putting a state championship caliber team out there. That's just not the case in D5 because of the difference in school sizes.

However, if what you say is true, then that just means that it isn't incredibly hard to have sustatined success in D5 either. It doesn't take anything away from Jeffcat's point that D4 (or D5) teams and up face more of a challenge of sustained playoff success because of the number of quality teams.

[paperboy]

I can understand the depth argument, but ask an Ada or Mechanicsburg or Covington how 'incredibly hard' it is to have sustained success in D6. Those teams get ousted from the playoffs time and again by D6 teams (ML and DSJ) that have beaten the state finalists in higher divisions (D4: 1998, 2000, and 2007; D5: 1999, 2009, 2010, and 2011).

Are there as many quality teams across the board in D6? Probably not, but there sure as heck are more 'behemoths' (namely two) that make winning a D6 title about as hard as it can get. And don't forget the two behemoths, either - they have to worry about knocking off the other one or they're sitting at home.

[BlueJay]

paperboy, on 16 October 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

I can understand the depth argument, but ask an Ada or Mechanicsburg or Covington how 'incredibly hard' it is to have sustained success in D6. Those teams get ousted from the playoffs time and again by D6 teams (ML and DSJ) that have beaten the state finalists in higher divisions (D4: 1998, 2000, and 2007; D5: 1999, 2009, 2010, and 2011).

Are there as many quality teams across the board in D6? Probably not, but there sure as heck are more 'behemoths' (namely two) that make winning a D6 title about as hard as it can get. And don't forget the two behemoths, either - they have to worry about knocking off the other one or they're sitting at home.

Bam

[Rd2Glory]

paperboy, on 16 October 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

I can understand the depth argument, but ask an Ada or Mechanicsburg or Covington how 'incredibly hard' it is to have sustained success in D6. Those teams get ousted from the playoffs time and again by D6 teams (ML and DSJ) that have beaten the state finalists in higher divisions (D4: 1998, 2000, and 2007; D5: 1999, 2009, 2010, and 2011).

Are there as many quality teams across the board in D6? Probably not, but there sure as heck are more 'behemoths' (namely two) that make winning a D6 title about as hard as it can get. And don't forget the two behemoths, either - they have to worry about knocking off the other one or they're sitting at home.

As far as I know, nobody was arguing that winning a D6 championship is easy. With "behemoths" like DSJ and ML in D6, very few teams stand a chance. The point Jeffcat (and I guess now me) is making, is that there aren't very many behemoths in D6. Therefore increasing your odds. I'm not saying there aren't any quality teams in D6, there are a few that could make a run in D5 yearly. But there are a lot more really, really, really bad teams in D6 that wouldn't have a prayer of coming within 5 TDs of a DJ or Spencerville or any other borderline D5 playoff team (much less a D4 team) and some of these teams make the playoffs! Chances are, if you lose your first round playoff game in D6, you don't even fall into the category of "decent" unless computer points workout to have ADA-ML or something flukey like that first week.

[jeffcat-bucki]

paperboy, on 16 October 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

I can understand the depth argument, but ask an Ada or Mechanicsburg or Covington how 'incredibly hard' it is to have sustained success in D6. Those teams get ousted from the playoffs time and again by D6 teams (ML and DSJ) that have beaten the state finalists in higher divisions (D4: 1998, 2000, and 2007; D5: 1999, 2009, 2010, and 2011).

Are there as many quality teams across the board in D6? Probably not, but there sure as heck are more 'behemoths' (namely two) that make winning a D6 title about as hard as it can get. And don't forget the two behemoths, either - they have to worry about knocking off the other one or they're sitting at home.

You essentially just described Kirtland's situation in D5 last year after years of getting beaten by Ursuline early in the playoffs.

[jeffcat-bucki]

Rd2Glory, on 16 October 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

As far as I know, nobody was arguing that winning a D6 championship is easy. With "behemoths" like DSJ and ML in D6, very few teams stand a chance. The point Jeffcat (and I guess now me) is making, is that there aren't very many behemoths in D6. Therefore increasing your odds. I'm not saying there aren't any quality teams in D6, there are a few that could make a run in D5 yearly. But there are a lot more really, really, really bad teams in D6 that wouldn't have a prayer of coming within 5 TDs of a DJ or Spencerville or any other borderline D5 playoff team (much less a D4 team) and some of these teams make the playoffs! Chances are, if you lose your first round playoff game in D6, you don't even fall into the category of "decent" unless computer points workout to have ADA-ML or something flukey like that first week.

True story.

[TRAM]

Rd2Glory, on 12 October 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

2010? The year that LCC went to the state semi-final and had a one score game with Ursuline until a minute left in the game? The same Ursuline team that beat Coldwater by 30 the following week? You are the "common opponent" guy from earlier in the thread right?

LCC should of lost to tinora that year

[Rd2Glory]

TRAM, on 18 October 2012 - 06:28 AM, said:

LCC should of lost to tinora that year

??? How should they have lost?

You do realize they were playing without their all-state/MSU-bound quarterback and still won, right?

[Bigdogg79]

For those of you that don't think that MAC schools should win the smallest school division every year, how many different D-6 games not involving a MAC team have you ever seen? Outside this area where people know better most people do not put much creditability in small school football because it is so bad.

[jeffcat-bucki]

Bigdogg79, on 18 October 2012 - 07:43 AM, said:

For those of you that don't think that MAC schools should win the smallest school division every year, how many different D-6 games not involving a MAC team have you ever seen? Outside this area where people know better most people do not put much creditability in small school football because it is so bad.

This is true. I almost feel privileged being able to see DJ play Ada and Leipsic recently. I occasionally catch Newark Catholic replays on TV and they aren't too bad, but nothing like they used to be.

[Bluetiger76]

I enjoy taking in the Liberty-Benton/McComb and LB/Leipsic games each year. This year we also got to see Fremont St. joe.

[CaTTT]

BathBaseball247, on 15 October 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

All this talk about Coldwater What are they D4?? The MAC aint all that .. WBL would destroy them in every sport .. Football, basketball, especially baseball, soccer, tennis, you name it

Bath wouldn't, so take a seat chump.

[boater]

BlueJay, on 15 October 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

Because sayin a conference full of DII and DIII and DIV schools would win against a conference that is made up of DV and DVI is saying a lot. But, hey. How many state championships in football does the WBL have???

Maybe you should ask you dad why your school and Coldwater left the WBL, back in the mid 70's and early 80's ... so as to no longer be EVERYONE's Homecoming game?

I am not a MAC hater - in fact the opposite. I have gone to the state finals for many years, and have regualrly stood proudly by people from St. Henry, Coldwater, Delphos and MSML rooting on their schools But IF you had to play in the WBL week in and week out .. we wouldn't be hearing all this chatter. Look are there years some of the TOP MAC teams might win the WBL -- maybe -- but unless they played in the WBL every week how we going to really know?
Both leagues have a great football tradition but the WBL has had MORE league teams play in the finals and the semi-finals in HIGHER divisions than the MAC.

[Teddy Malone]

WBL teams have won 6 state titles, and been runners up 5 times. That is probably above the median for all Ohio conferences and leagues in terms of state titles and appearances, and few leagues have had the variety of teams reach the title game that the WBL has. Only two WBL schools have never appeared in a state semifinal game.