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LB Moves On


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#1 soccerdad11

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 12:12 PM

Great win for LB last night. Is it true that the first girl that kicked has a torn ACL, shocked that she came off the bench and took the first kick after not playing a single minute in the game? Can anyone explain what happened and why she needed to kick twice.


#2 Stewart Little

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 12:28 PM

View Postsoccerdad11, on 30 October 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

Great win for LB last night. Is it true that the first girl that kicked has a torn ACL, shocked that she came off the bench and took the first kick after not playing a single minute in the game? Can anyone explain what happened and why she needed to kick twice.

My coworker, who was in attendance, said the referee had LB's first girl kick from the wrong spot. It sounds like they were on a football field and they placed the ball at the 2-point conversion line when it should have been placed further back from the goal. My coworker went on to say that the officiating was not very good. I think it goes back to an earlier comment about going to 1 ref instead of 2, but I am not a soccer whiz by any means to be able to discuss that. Maybe someone in attendance or a soccer buff can explain.

#3 SDFO

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 11:41 PM

There is not a 1 ref system, please stop saying that. In the areas of West Central Ohio/southern parts of NWO, the most common system used in regular season HS games is the 2 ref system. 2 whistles, 2 refs. this is not the preferred system by refs or coaches. However, due to low numbers of CERTIFIED referees, more often than not the games are covered with 2-man. In the 2 man system, each official is responsible for every aspect of calling the game, namely fouls, offside, and restarts when the ball goes out of touch. Trust me, this is a lot of area to cover for 2 refs. Most games 2 is fine, but there are certain games where it would be nice to have 3.

In a 3 man system, also know as the diagonal system of control, there is 1 Center Referee (CR) and 2 Assistant referees (ARs). The center referee had the only whistle, and will be the primary ref to call fouls, and decide on issuing cards. AR's primarily are responsible for offside, and restarts for out of touch balls in their quadrant.

If the CR and ARs are truly a team working together, the ARs will look to the CR to see how he is calling the game, and bring to his attention any fouls he may not see. If an AR sees what he feels is a foul, he will first look to the CR to see if the CR would have seen the foul. Sometime the CR can be shielded from play and will not see the same that an AR sees. If this happens, the AR should flag the foul, and then show the CR which direction the dfk should go in. most of the time though, the CR sees the same thing the AR sees, and the CR makes the decision whether the foul was trifling, give advantage if one exists, or if the foul caused a disadvantage to the offended team, resulting in a dfk for the offended team.

It is always preferred to have a 3rd set of eyes and legs on a soccer official crew. much of the time though reality dictates only 2 can be used.

In OHSAA tournament play, the 2 man it utilized in sectional play, then the 3 man is used in district play and beyond. This is the OHSAA's policy in tournament play.

I'm not offering an excuse, but that being said, the soccer lines on the field at Tiffin are very faint. It likely would be easy for an official to "miss" the mark. But, the mark is at 12 yards for soccer, where as the extra point conversion line in football is at the 3 yard line (I think), which would make the first kick from too far back, not to close as noted above. Also, by the time you get to regional play, the officials are selected from a smaller pool of the highest rated official in the State. I have no doubt that the game had a top notch crew. your coworker, is likely a parent (at least a fan of one team), and is biased. Biased observers do not see the game in the same perspective as unbiased observers. So, cheer for your teams (the kids love that!), let the kids play, the coaches coach, and the refs ref :)



#4 Stewart Little

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 07:58 AM

View PostSDFO, on 30 October 2013 - 11:41 PM, said:

There is not a 1 ref system, please stop saying that. In the areas of West Central Ohio/southern parts of NWO, the most common system used in regular season HS games is the 2 ref system. 2 whistles, 2 refs. this is not the preferred system by refs or coaches. However, due to low numbers of CERTIFIED referees, more often than not the games are covered with 2-man. In the 2 man system, each official is responsible for every aspect of calling the game, namely fouls, offside, and restarts when the ball goes out of touch. Trust me, this is a lot of area to cover for 2 refs. Most games 2 is fine, but there are certain games where it would be nice to have 3.

In a 3 man system, also know as the diagonal system of control, there is 1 Center Referee (CR) and 2 Assistant referees (ARs). The center referee had the only whistle, and will be the primary ref to call fouls, and decide on issuing cards. AR's primarily are responsible for offside, and restarts for out of touch balls in their quadrant.

If the CR and ARs are truly a team working together, the ARs will look to the CR to see how he is calling the game, and bring to his attention any fouls he may not see. If an AR sees what he feels is a foul, he will first look to the CR to see if the CR would have seen the foul. Sometime the CR can be shielded from play and will not see the same that an AR sees. If this happens, the AR should flag the foul, and then show the CR which direction the dfk should go in. most of the time though, the CR sees the same thing the AR sees, and the CR makes the decision whether the foul was trifling, give advantage if one exists, or if the foul caused a disadvantage to the offended team, resulting in a dfk for the offended team.

It is always preferred to have a 3rd set of eyes and legs on a soccer official crew. much of the time though reality dictates only 2 can be used.

In OHSAA tournament play, the 2 man it utilized in sectional play, then the 3 man is used in district play and beyond. This is the OHSAA's policy in tournament play.

I'm not offering an excuse, but that being said, the soccer lines on the field at Tiffin are very faint. It likely would be easy for an official to "miss" the mark. But, the mark is at 12 yards for soccer, where as the extra point conversion line in football is at the 3 yard line (I think), which would make the first kick from too far back, not to close as noted above. Also, by the time you get to regional play, the officials are selected from a smaller pool of the highest rated official in the State. I have no doubt that the game had a top notch crew. your coworker, is likely a parent (at least a fan of one team), and is biased. Biased observers do not see the game in the same perspective as unbiased observers. So, cheer for your teams (the kids love that!), let the kids play, the coaches coach, and the refs ref :)

The game was played at Ashland, so faint lines on the Tiffin field is no excuse (I don't think they would have driven from Ashland to Tiffin to do the shout out :clap: ), plus it was turf so the lines or marks should be clearly visible. I asked my co-worker again and they maintain that if your assessment is correct, then all of the kicks in the shootout were taken from the wrong place because they moved the ball back away from the extra point line, not closer.

When I think about it I don't think you can use the football marks on the field as an assessment. You are assuming that the opening to the goal is the same as the out of bounds for football, but it makes sense that the soccer goal needs to be moved forward to accomodate goal posts. So I can see how their could be confusion, but please, the OHSAA should be assigning good, experienced officials so things of this nature do not happen. What would have happened had they not determined that they were kicking from the incorrect spot until after the shootout was completed, or just on shooter left?

Edited by Stewart Little, 31 October 2013 - 08:07 AM.


#5 SDFO

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 08:37 AM

my bad, I thought that game was at tiffin for some reason. Maybe the LB boys played at Tiffin? Too mnay games to keep track of. Either way, Tiffin is turf, and the lines are not very clear, even if you are on the field!!

I have never seen Ashland's field, but every turf field I have seen has has the football OB line being the end line for soccer. The base of the FB posts are typically a couple yards back from the OB line, which accommodates the soccer goal, not to mention taking care of a safety concern for football players. Again, I don't not know Ashland's set up though. Never been there. However, I can tell you the PK mark in HS soccer is 12 yards from the end line and as long as all the kicks were taken from the same mark, then it was fair. Also, not all turf Football fields have the proper soccer markings on them, I've been to a few that are missing one thing or another.

Again, I'll say at the regional level you are drawing from a smaller pool of the highest rated officials. I'm sure the crew at ASHLAND was just fine and did a tremendous job.

I've always found it funny about people who like to complain about officials, rather than get off their you know whats and try it themselves.

#6 falconfan84

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 09:13 AM

I know it is what it is...but...with 3 refs, wouldn't you think the ARs could have whistles also. It has to be difficult for the CR to see everything going on, and sometimes he/she doesn't have a good angle on the play either. I suppose that's why the CR should check with the ARs. But, it's not out of the realm of possibility the the CR doesn't see a foul, or misses part of the play. If all the ARs have is a flag to raise, and play continues without the CR seeing that flag (because he is watching the play), then sometimes things go uncalled or called the wrong way. A couple more whistles on the field would be helpful, I think.

#7 SDFO

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 09:15 AM

View Postsoccerdad11, on 30 October 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

Great win for LB last night. Is it true that the first girl that kicked has a torn ACL, shocked that she came off the bench and took the first kick after not playing a single minute in the game? Can anyone explain what happened and why she needed to kick twice.


by the way, lost in this mess is an answer to the question about the girl with the torn ACL? Kudos to her for taking a kick cold off the bench.

#8 gamekeeper

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 09:34 AM

Problem for the average fan in Soccer is, if say some fouls don't always get called if the team that was fouled still has advantage and control of the ball. Soccer strives hard to keep play moving. So you will see plays where things get called then later they don't because it would be to a teams disavantage to stop the ball. (Unless blantly harmful fouls)

Also, the 3 ref system, my only fault with very seldom will the Side refs make any calls, or overule and call unless the Center ref asks for help. At this level.

My questions are Ref messed up the spot so he made the LB player rekick after she already had made it. So why not just let the next smithville girl kick from that same spot. Then it is even then move it back to the correct spot for the Rest, Go over explain to the coaches, and just go on. Because I am sure had she then missed her second kick that doens't exactly seem right, or had she missed it the first time, and got a chance to kick it again. That doesn't seem fair either.

Edited by gamekeeper, 31 October 2013 - 09:38 AM.


#9 Hagen

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 10:21 AM

View Postgamekeeper, on 31 October 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

My questions are Ref messed up the spot so he made the LB player rekick after she already had made it. So why not just let the next smithville girl kick from that same spot. Then it is even then move it back to the correct spot for the Rest, Go over explain to the coaches, and just go on.
While it may not be "fair," I believe that's what the rule/case books call for in that instance. Officials are like police officers, they only enforce the rules, they don't make them. They are bound by the book, regardless of what the "right" thing to do is.
I agree it's a disadvantage for the kicker to kick again after a made PK, because the goalie has a better sense of what the kicker likes to do on the second try.

Edited by Hagen, 31 October 2013 - 10:22 AM.


#10 SDFO

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 10:45 AM

View PostHagen, on 31 October 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

While it may not be "fair," I believe that's what the rule/case books call for in that instance. Officials are like police officers, they only enforce the rules, they don't make them. They are bound by the book, regardless of what the "right" thing to do is.
I agree it's a disadvantage for the kicker to kick again after a made PK, because the goalie has a better sense of what the kicker likes to do on the second try.

on the other hand, it's also a disadvantage to the keeper for the kicker to be closer than she should be.

Bottom line is yes, maybe the spot was wrong on the first kick. I wasn't there, so I can't say. But did the ref resolve it in a fair manner? Yes

I don't know that there is a specific rule on this in the NFHS handbook or not (I doubt it), but it is a fair resolution.

as far as having 3 whistles, such a system does exist for NFHS. It is not used very often (I don't know anyone who has ever done it and I've been around a while), so that should tell you volumes about how well it works.

Edited by SDFO, 31 October 2013 - 11:42 AM.


#11 SDFO

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 11:44 AM

back to the original topic,

Congrats to the LB Girls and Mark on advancing to the regional final this Saturday!!

Good Luck Ladies!

#12 soccerdad11

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 01:23 PM

I heard more details from someone at the game. The player does have a torn ACL and is waiting for her surgery. She dressed for the game and was trying to get the coach to let her play but she never made it in. The other captain added her name to the list and the coach agreed. Her first kick was to the right and the goalie dove that way but the ball went in the side of the goal (good shot). The second kick, as someone mentioned did give the goalie an advantage as most kids would go the same way...in this case the LB player drilled the ball in the opposite side of the net while the goalie went with the odds and dove the way the previous kick went...I guess the coach and other captain were right with the decision...not sure many other HS players would have the composure to take back to back kicks under these circumstances...the Courier said the LB player was a Junior Captain, guess that says something on a team loaded with seniors. I was also told that this was the third starter that LB lost to ACL injuries this year...WOW...how would this team be playing if they hadn't lost these starters...GREAT JOB LB...keep up the run to the state finals...NW Ohio should be very happy and proud.

#13 SDFO

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 02:12 PM

That's a great story on how her name made it to the top of the list. Thanks for sharing!!







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