74 replies to this topic

[HH75]

Dman, on 14 January 2014 - 02:58 PM, said:

It is a bygone era. High school sports are no longer socially celebrated. People have "more important" things to do. We have had multiple generations of kids who had fathers who never bothered to bring them to a game. I, for example, never missed ANY basketball or football game from kindergarten on... My dad made sure of it. That is just what we did on Friday/Saturday/Tuesday evenings. We went to eat, and we went to the game...whether home or away.

Those kids who have never been afforded the opportunity to go to these games as children...are now parents who don't have any tradition of supporting the local teams...because it was never stressed to them as children. Movies, television, drinking, etc are more important than a high school sports event.

In many communities the star athlete and/or coach are actually derided. We see that on here all the time. For example...I'm laughing at the current "fire Kill" discussion where Best is now held up as the gold standard of the superior coach. I've been around here long enough to remember the threads where Best was considered outdated. Heck I remember them saying the same thing about Seg. Somewhere in the past 25 years it has become acceptable to criticise and deride SUCCESS. Good people, coaches, and players who care and work hard at their craft are criticised for being successful. There have always been "haters." But these days, in many communities the "haters" are the popular bunch. It is COOL to not attend games. It is COOL to drink and party, etc. Those kids who bother to show up and support their school are not typically from the "in" crowd.

The reason that the people attending games are older is that they are remnants of a different generation where success, loyalty, spirit, etc were concepts to be celebrated. The star player/coach were RESPECTED for their work and abilities. These concepts are no longer deemed worthy of respect among the masses.

I could give a political theory as to why this as happened...but I don't have the time or desire. Suffice to say...it is what it is. Those who actually stress and admire the pursuit of excellence, teamwork, etc are the minority. We show up to the games. We usually have very good seats! We also tend to be the dominant personalities on the RC...though I believe almost all of us know we are a dying breed.

This!

[HH75]

Dman, on 14 January 2014 - 07:53 PM, said:

Green:

You are describing the "me" phenomenon. Parents care more about themselves than their children's success, etc. There are good young athletes in every community who never develop because mom and dad (when both are actually in the home) don't have the "time" to take their kid to practice. Who has not heard "they practice too much?" Or "let these kids have a life outside sports."

When I hear this stuff...I automatically assume we have a mother/father more invested in their home entertainment system than their kids. Most of the time I assume correct.

There was a time that society frowned on deadbeat parents. Now we make excuses for, or actually celebrate their apathy.

How many fathers you see shooting baskets with their kids? Smacking ground balls, etc...?

Those fathers that do are often derided by the majority deadbeats for "pushing their kid too hard."

Society is ass backwards in my opinion. When daddy would rather watch his hi def than throw a ball with his kid...OR take him to the field to watch a game... Daddy is a selfish prick.

More people in the general society will take issue with my preceding paragraph than daddy sitting on his ass.

That is the real reason the stands are empty...

This

[HH75]

FlightCrew, on 15 January 2014 - 12:00 AM, said:

Sounds all well and good dman but you can't blame the poor play on dad's not working with their kids. The kids need to want it and go outside or to the gym and work for hours and hours on their own. I could go out and shoot and dribble with my kid for 2 hours every night but if he doesn't find a buddy to work with for more time than that, then he is not gonna be much of a player.

And this!!

[erniefurgler]

Dman, on 14 January 2014 - 02:58 PM, said:

It is a bygone era. High school sports are no longer socially celebrated. People have "more important" things to do. We have had multiple generations of kids who had fathers who never bothered to bring them to a game. I, for example, never missed ANY basketball or football game from kindergarten on... My dad made sure of it. That is just what we did on Friday/Saturday/Tuesday evenings. We went to eat, and we went to the game...whether home or away.

Those kids who have never been afforded the opportunity to go to these games as children...are now parents who don't have any tradition of supporting the local teams...because it was never stressed to them as children. Movies, television, drinking, etc are more important than a high school sports event.

In many communities the star athlete and/or coach are actually derided. We see that on here all the time. For example...I'm laughing at the current "fire Kill" discussion where Best is now held up as the gold standard of the superior coach. I've been around here long enough to remember the threads where Best was considered outdated. Heck I remember them saying the same thing about Seg. Somewhere in the past 25 years it has become acceptable to criticise and deride SUCCESS. Good people, coaches, and players who care and work hard at their craft are criticised for being successful. There have always been "haters." But these days, in many communities the "haters" are the popular bunch. It is COOL to not attend games. It is COOL to drink and party, etc. Those kids who bother to show up and support their school are not typically from the "in" crowd.

The reason that the people attending games are older is that they are remnants of a different generation where success, loyalty, spirit, etc were concepts to be celebrated. The star player/coach were RESPECTED for their work and abilities. These concepts are no longer deemed worthy of respect among the masses.

I could give a political theory as to why this as happened...but I don't have the time or desire. Suffice to say...it is what it is. Those who actually stress and admire the pursuit of excellence, teamwork, etc are the minority. We show up to the games. We usually have very good seats! We also tend to be the dominant personalities on the RC...though I believe almost all of us know we are a dying breed.

I would agree with most of this, although websites such as this and "others" have become the vehicle used to deride the players/coaches. In the past it was one thing for the locals to whine & complain at the local watering hole...now it goes to the masses. Part of me can't blame a kid for not wanting to be part of such BS. I would really like to see the accolades & awards collected by your average Rocketcorner poster...going out on a limb and guessing many have plenty of space left in their trophy case. Grown adults chastising players & coaches with a cloak of anonymity that is the internet is really sad. Maybe it's just not worth it for some kids nowadays...which leads to fewer playing & fewer fans in the stands. Is their a connection between when these websites took off & the decline of HS sports??

[Coach]

I personally think the FUN has been taken out of the game! Way back when I played you didn’t have the year around commitments, camps summer leagues, weight lifting, etc. Today’s coaches are encouraging you to play their sport year round. When I played the coaches worked together and wanted you to go out for all sports. Kids are tired of being used. Another thing, kids aren’t dumb.

I know you gain many attributes from sports but today’s society only thinks of here and now! When you compare athletics to life, how important are sports in the grand whelm of things?

Emphases on winning are so great that we forget about the reason why sports were implemented in the first place. I have always said I would rather have my children be coached by a person that was a role model, instilled teamwork, discipline and stressed academics than their won loss record. Today the coach is evaluated on wins and losses or whether certain parent’s kids get playing time!

[moe_ szyslak]

Maltese Falcon, on 13 January 2014 - 10:36 PM, said:

The price of a ticket to a HS basketball game has not changed in the past 10 years, $5-6.00. Concessions are still dirt cheap, .50 cent popcorn, $1 pops......this is way less than you would pay for concessions anywhere else, BUT, I know HS basketball fans and they are not there for the concessions, they are there for the basketball and the level of play has fallen..........but is that it?

games during the week have always been low attendance, but the weekend games are still suffering.

Perhaps, but that $6 ticket is a lot more expensive now.

[moe_ szyslak]

I blame the refs!

[erniefurgler]

I would agree with the comments around sports becoming a year-round commitment. Kids also start at a much ounger age...basketball, baseball/softball, soccer...kids can start playing at 4-5 yrs old. Are they just burnt our by the time they're 16? Basketball specifically, for the amount of time spent playing/training, the product on the court has definitely not improved.

[moe_ szyslak]

The sport needs to be year round... just not in an organized manner...

[Common Sense]

Dman, on 14 January 2014 - 07:53 PM, said:

Green:

You are describing the "me" phenomenon. Parents care more about themselves than their children's success, etc. There are good young athletes in every community who never develop because mom and dad (when both are actually in the home) don't have the "time" to take their kid to practice. Who has not heard "they practice too much?" Or "let these kids have a life outside sports."

When I hear this stuff...I automatically assume we have a mother/father more invested in their home entertainment system than their kids. Most of the time I assume correct.

There was a time that society frowned on deadbeat parents. Now we make excuses for, or actually celebrate their apathy.

How many fathers you see shooting baskets with their kids? Smacking ground balls, etc...?

Those fathers that do are often derided by the majority deadbeats for "pushing their kid too hard."

Society is ass backwards in my opinion. When daddy would rather watch his hi def than throw a ball with his kid...OR take him to the field to watch a game... Daddy is a selfish prick.

More people in the general society will take issue with my preceding paragraph than daddy sitting on his ass.

That is the real reason the stands are empty...

I'll also add to that that some of the good men in the community who volunteer to coach teams and work with the youth are often pushed out by overbearing parents or the red tape associated in just playing a game. We are "organizing" ourselves right out of kids games.

[Coach]

Another thing that I didn’t think has been mentioned is the girl’s basketball teams. Girl’s teams have taken some of the crowds away. Not in any way blaming the girl’s programs but instead of shelling out money on just Friday/Saturday nights, now you are shelling it out sometimes four or five times a week. This may be a bigger issue than some of the other comments that have been made.
I guess a lot of you would disagree but over the years I have seen some really great girl’s basketball games and really bad games. I would also say the same for the boys. I still think all leagues should rotate games on weekends. I don’t think the common person realizes what a girl goes through when they play most of their games on a weekend night. Homework, tests and so forth. It simply isn’t right or fair. I know some leagues have addressed this issue and I am curious how it is working out. Having both sexes that played on the high school basketball teams the girl’s get short changed. I have been there! You don’t have to agree but honestly it is like getting different pay for doing the same job. I have said it over and over but our society is really a man’s world.

[Ward]

I think it has to do with a lot of things. I think Dman said it right above. I mean if you have family member or someone you may know playing, more than likely you will go to support them for most part of the season. I think also some people will only draw interest of going as long as the team is doing good. That happens in all levels in sports. I don't think the games during the week will have much less of a crowd than a weekend game since the times of the game are all the same. But will some people moving away due to their jobs or just moving to the big city, will take away the crowd. But overall Dman has made some extraordinary points on this that I don't have to say much more.

[Dman]

Quote

I know you gain many attributes from sports but today’s society only thinks of here and now! When you compare athletics to life, how important are sports in the grand whelm of things?

You just nailed it. This is the prevailing attitude. I don't necessarily agree or like it, but I know this is true for the majority. Today it is not enough for a kid to make a team. The 8-10 guy on the bench is often disgruntled...as are his parents. These kids think that if they are not the star, then they are not important. The day of the parent saying the teacher/coach is always right is long gone. Instead the parents/kids take the 180 degree approach and BLAME the coach, belittle the program, etc for not making their "little johnny" the star he deserves to be.

High school sports, in many areas, are fueled by negative energy and tepid support. It is not just that these kids and adults don't show up and support these programs. They often actively undermine these programs. Good people/parents/coaches have been sullied by the entire process. They are often replaced with coaches/parents who do not have the kids' best interests at heart. It is a perpetual cycle of disappointment and negativity. High school sports are the Cleveland Browns.

I don't really mind that the attendance is down. I understand it. I do have a problem with the "negativity." I do have a problem when the kid who can drink a 12 pack faster than the rest is more celebrated than the kid who who runs faster on the track. I think we, in many schools/areas, have completely lost focus on what should be important. Excellence should be celebrated and admired.

Those who have been around here a while have probably read some of our threads about the "culture" of a school. The problem today is that the "culture" at the vast majority of public schools is a "loser" culture. It has not infected every kid/parent/coach, but it is certainly more prevalent than it was in the days that the stands were full. The athletes/coaches that succeed today often have to deal with a lot more "haters" than the kids/coaches used to have to endure. They certainly have to succeed with less community support. In terms of peer pressure, etc...it is often much more "cool" and accepted to QUIT the team (see Ottoville basketball when Turnwald arrived) than to work hard at one's craft.

I can't stomach this phenomenon...but I certainly see it with my own eyes...and realize that my worldview is not the majority worldview for the modern parent/player.

Empty stands are the least of the problems with high school sports. The day is coming when there won't be high school sports at all. Hopefully I'll be dead when it happens. Nothing makes me happier than watching these young athletes and the committed coaches succeed in such a negative environment. I couldn't do it. I'd go all Woody Hayes on the first parent that bitched about their kid's playing time!

[paynepanthers]

We live in a society that thrives on negativity. We have media organizations that focus almost solely on reporting what might hurt the person or organization that they don't agree with and we have political parties that act in much the same way. I think that in many aspects of life we have lost the "we are all in this together" attitude. There are certainly pockets of old style community but I fear they are fading away rapidly. The RC wouldn't get nearly the traffic that it gets if it wasn't for the negatively slanted threads. What is also true is that there are bad coaches, bad teachers and bad administrators out there and they are certainly not always right. Social media allows for people to freely make their feelings known about the bad apples. If we are allowed to judge parents on their lack of interest in sports then we should be also be open to the criticism that we focus too much on sports.

[Dman]

If there was too much focus on sports...the stands would be full. Sports are ancillary to the discussion.

The societal shift is that parents today are much more interested in their own interests versus those of their kids...than they used to be. One need only look at the divorce rate to see that change. We are a much more adult-centric society.

Class plays, band concerts, summer swimming pools...etc... All youth dominated activities with decreased attendance that parallels the gym stands...

[Common Sense]

Coach, on 15 January 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

Another thing that I didn’t think has been mentioned is the girl’s basketball teams. Girl’s teams have taken some of the crowds away. Not in any way blaming the girl’s programs but instead of shelling out money on just Friday/Saturday nights, now you are shelling it out sometimes four or five times a week. This may be a bigger issue than some of the other comments that have been made.
I guess a lot of you would disagree but over the years I have seen some really great girl’s basketball games and really bad games. I would also say the same for the boys. I still think all leagues should rotate games on weekends. I don’t think the common person realizes what a girl goes through when they play most of their games on a weekend night. Homework, tests and so forth. It simply isn’t right or fair. I know some leagues have addressed this issue and I am curious how it is working out. Having both sexes that played on the high school basketball teams the girl’s get short changed. I have been there! You don’t have to agree but honestly it is like getting different pay for doing the same job. I have said it over and over but our society is really a man’s world.

Coach, I'm going to disagree with you to a point on girls/ boys rotating games on the weekend. And you say our society is a man's world and yes, it is! At least from the sports perspective. You can do all you want to make things equal with game times, opportunities, etc., but boys sports are just going to create more interest and get bigger crowds. I don't know why people feel like they need to apologize for that. Look at pro sports, Does anyone watch the WNBA, pro tennis, golf??? Very, very few when you look at ratings. There is no professional team volleyball. In this day and age where athletic departments need every dime to operate, why switch a product that less people are going to support just in the name of fairness??? Also, I counted this season, there is no less than 13 Saturdays during the course of the basketball season. Your AD can easily schedule games on most of those Saturdays, and then you just have 1 weeknight game per week for your 22 games.

[Common Sense]

paynepanthers, on 16 January 2014 - 07:08 AM, said:

We live in a society that thrives on negativity. We have media organizations that focus almost solely on reporting what might hurt the person or organization that they don't agree with and we have political parties that act in much the same way. I think that in many aspects of life we have lost the "we are all in this together" attitude. There are certainly pockets of old style community but I fear they are fading away rapidly. The RC wouldn't get nearly the traffic that it gets if it wasn't for the negatively slanted threads. What is also true is that there are bad coaches, bad teachers and bad administrators out there and they are certainly not always right. Social media allows for people to freely make their feelings known about the bad apples. If we are allowed to judge parents on their lack of interest in sports then we should be also be open to the criticism that we focus too much on sports.

Well said payne, I do feel there is too much of an emphasis on "winning" in high school sports. It's complicated though. You don't want kids playing high school sports with an "intramural" mentality where it doesn't matter if they win or lose. I've always told people the "want" to win is more important than winning itself. I think as educators and coaches, we need to continue to work towards something, not just play out the string. And as parents, we need to support our kids in a positive way, not negative. Everyone wants to win, but at most games I've been to, there is one winner, and one loser.

[dc99]

^{Crowd sizes are down due to the play of basketball is not very good. The kids have never played more games during the season or summer than what they do NOW and they are no better. Why pay $24(family of four) to watch a 39 to 35 point game where both teams shoot freethrows for the last quarter because both teams are in the double bonus(all the fouls). This being said is nothing new than what has been said before. Watch the throwback game of 1991 St. Henry vs Van Wert. Are there any teams or players like that around? If there are than that school doesn't have an attendance problem.}

[paynepanthers]

The "we" would be us who take the time to post on a high school sports message board (me included). Those who don't do that, would say that "we" are too focused on sports.

[Irish Viking 87]

FlightCrew, on 15 January 2014 - 12:00 AM, said:

Sounds all well and good dman but you can't blame the poor play on dad's not working with their kids. The kids need to want it and go outside or to the gym and work for hours and hours on their own. I could go out and shoot and dribble with my kid for 2 hours every night but if he doesn't find a buddy to work with for more time than that, then he is not gonna be much of a player.

Kids are much more likely to work on their own if he/she has a parent that works with him/her.If he/she sees that they have a parent that cares, he/she is more likely to care and put in the extra effort. Parents need to make time to spend with their kids. Their is no better quality time as a parent than teaching your child. Some of the best moments in my life are teaching my little girl something and seeing the point where it clicks for her and she understands what I was saying. Too many parents today let the TV and video games raise their children.