17 replies to this topic

[bleacherman]

I need some coaches to school me on this subject. I know that varsity coaches only get 10 coaching days thru the summer. I was watching a summer league game and noticed an area coach sitting at the very end of the bleachers near the exit door. Nowhere near his players. As a matter of fact, another adult was sitting with the team subbing in players and coaching them. So this coach obviously was not using this league game as a coaching day. Then how can he yell at his players from his vantage point and talk to his players after the game about their performance. I thought if he is not using this league game as a coaching day that he can have no verbal contact with his players concerning basketball. This has happened on more than one occasion during this summer league. Is this a OHSAA violation or not??

[bleacherman]

But who does the "self-policed" part. If the coach is coaching when he's not supposed to be, who is policing that?? This school will not contact the OHSAA about a possible violation. If the compliance officer doesn't catch this, then it will go unpunished. I know our varsity coach doesn't even go to the games to avoid possible problems. He knows summer league games don't really matter much, just a way for the kids to stay in basketball shape and get some game time in the summer. So he don't even come. And this coach is one of the few that I've seen there and he has "coached" his team from a distance and talked to them after the game on numerous occassions. Just asking this out of my ignorance of OHSAA rules.

[Common Sense]

The 10 day rule is more for the schools internally with other sports. If you had no 10 day rule, some coaches would have open gyms everyday and play in team camps and shootouts every weekend. June and July are out of control in high school, and the multi sport athlete gets the shaft. They are forced into tough spots because coaches overlap open gyms and shootouts so they can't be at everything. YOu just hope that the coaches understand the purpose of summer camps and don't penalize the kids who can't be everywhere/ everyday.
The others that get the shaft are those who can't afford all these camps. I can't imagine schools pay for all expenses to these camps as they can sometimes run several hundred dollars per team.

[bleacherman]

Common, we seem to be having conversations on multiple threads. I don't have a problem with the 10 day rule. I know its there for multiple sport kids. My kid is in multiple sports this summer. I have a problem with the coach who knows the rule and tries to dodge the rule, find any possible loopholes or whatever, when other coaches go out of there way to stay within the rules. I sometimes just think that some coaches with their tenure and status of being well known in the area, think they should be given special priviledges (sp?).

[CarpetCleaner]

Bleacher - the scenario you describe is a violation of the 10 day rule. If a coach is there and not using it as a coaching day, then they sit there and not say a word and don't talk to the team after the game. They are simply a spectator. No different in open gym if a coach says I want to see this and this. A coach's duty for open gym is to be there and that's it, if they use a scoreboard for timing purposes or to keep score at open gym it is a violation, as is transporting kids to an open gym. If a coach stops and picks a kid up on the way to the open gym or if the open gym is at a neighboring school and the coach takes kids over, it's a violation. As far as the "police" part, it is up to the AD to explain these rules to their coaches and then the coaches to follow them, the OHSAA will never have a compliance officer, it is up to each school to make sure that they are following the rules. Another rule that is usually broken is that high school coaches and JH coaches both use 10 days to coach - rule is the basketball program (7-12) has 10 days to use, not each level. So if the JH coach takes kids to a shootout a day the varsity coach has nothing scheduled, that counts as one of the programs 10 days. How many programs abuse that rule? Rules are broken everyday, it is up to each school to make sure things are done the right way and if they know of a rule violation and do nothing about it then what are they teaching the youngsters they are supposed to be educating? It is okay to cheat as long as you don't get caught or have others look the other way.

[bleacherman]

Carpet, thank you for your insight. Had a feeling it was a violation but I didn't know all the specifics concerning the 10 day rule. And as I said previously, the schools AD or admin will NOT report it to the OHSAA because of who the coach is. So he probably will continue to violate this rule, but Oh well such is life.

[Common Sense]

 CarpetCleaner, on 21 June 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

Bleacher - the scenario you describe is a violation of the 10 day rule. If a coach is there and not using it as a coaching day, then they sit there and not say a word and don't talk to the team after the game. They are simply a spectator. No different in open gym if a coach says I want to see this and this. A coach's duty for open gym is to be there and that's it, if they use a scoreboard for timing purposes or to keep score at open gym it is a violation, as is transporting kids to an open gym. If a coach stops and picks a kid up on the way to the open gym or if the open gym is at a neighboring school and the coach takes kids over, it's a violation. As far as the "police" part, it is up to the AD to explain these rules to their coaches and then the coaches to follow them, the OHSAA will never have a compliance officer, it is up to each school to make sure that they are following the rules. Another rule that is usually broken is that high school coaches and JH coaches both use 10 days to coach - rule is the basketball program (7-12) has 10 days to use, not each level. So if the JH coach takes kids to a shootout a day the varsity coach has nothing scheduled, that counts as one of the programs 10 days. How many programs abuse that rule? Rules are broken everyday, it is up to each school to make sure things are done the right way and if they know of a rule violation and do nothing about it then what are they teaching the youngsters they are supposed to be educating? It is okay to cheat as long as you don't get caught or have others look the other way.

Violation, but who's going to blow the whistle? The kids (or parents) currently in the program will not because it cuts their own throat with any future in the program. AD's and school administrators are on vacation and don't ever hear of these things. Also makes you wonder when some programs go 3-4 hours away from home where no one they know can monitor what's going on.
Are you sure about the JH/ High school rule? I know programs that have a high school team, JV team and JH team at the same 3 day camp. With what you said, this is 9 of the 10 days of the school's summer program?

[Dark Knight]

Common,
If the camp is for all on the same days then it would only be 3 days.

[bballcoach10]

Carpet is incorrect about the junior high rule. Junior high is allotted its own 10 days. Freshmen- varsity then operates under a separate 10 days.

As for coaches cheating...it happens. Not going to change. Personally, if used in the right manner, I don't see the harm in going over 10 days ( other than its against the rules). If the coach is having 20 days of events and pressures players to attend all of these then it's not right. If he is helping kids at an open gym who are there on their own choosing then I don't care if the coach coaches every day all summer. Personally I'd rather see the OHSAA go to a total summer shutdown of all sports OR eliminate all restrictions and allow unlimited coaching. Right now it's just creating a disadvantage for those who strictly follow the rules. I'd be fine with either one, but to pretend you can set guidelines and that everyone will self police is not realistic. Either drop the rules or shut it all down.

[rallyinthe9th]

I think teams should be allowed a certain number of competition days and a certain number of practice days. Any time 3 or more kids from a team play together counts as a competition day regardless of who coaches them. If the guys are playing anyways, why not have the high school coach give instruction. Most teams seem to play in a league that a former player or parent coaches. Many coaches currently coach from the end or second row anyways. It is frustrating to the coaches that don't do it and creates a somewhat uneven playing field. To me 12-15 competition days or some game limit would be good. Maybe 5-7 of those days have to be 2 or less games and the other 8 can be for shootouts or team camp. Give coaches 5 days for instruction as well.

Most coaches use the days for shootouts and kids need to learn to shoot and be drilled. I don't think many programs do much in July. I think they could cut off basketball summer at July 15 without too much of an issue.

[bleacherman]

I sincerely appreciate all the opinions and insight. But it's gonna happen and there's nothing we are gonna do about it. Let's close this thread. Thanks everyone.

[Common Sense]

Summer sports are great, it allows kids to play and work on things they can't during the season, but it has to be closely monitored by the coaching staff, AD and school administrators.
Big concers are for the multi-sport athletes as they many times have to miss things due to overlap - how is that viewed by the coach? Is the kid punished becasue they don't choose the coache's sport? (and we all know this happens).
Second concern is the cost. Many organized team camps charge by the camper ($100-$200) depending on if they stay overnight, meals, or commute. So you're looking at $200-$500 for one sport per summer for a couple of camps? How can families afford this? Some can, what about those who can't? Summer camps only for the affluent?

[Hot Sauce]

Common Sense are you serious with your last statement...you must be a Democrat based on that statement.
Maybe the government will bail those out for camps as well...seriously! Maybe the kids should go get a part time job mowing yards, working for local farmers, working at the local fast food joint, etc.....tired of the excuses by kids and parents...do something for yourself and stop blaming those who have worked to get where they are.

[caldwell]

Continental is the place to go and see what is allowed and disallowed in regards to off season basketball programs. Than again, there is no off season basketball program at Continental. They practice fully coached year around!

[Common Sense]

 Hot Sauce, on 22 June 2012 - 08:16 AM, said:

Common Sense are you serious with your last statement...you must be a Democrat based on that statement.
Maybe the government will bail those out for camps as well...seriously! Maybe the kids should go get a part time job mowing yards, working for local farmers, working at the local fast food joint, etc.....tired of the excuses by kids and parents...do something for yourself and stop blaming those who have worked to get where they are.

Tough to get jobs when you lift, condition, do 7/7's, go to open gyms, team camps, shootouts, and maybe work a baseball game in or two in the evenings. Could you get a job, then go to your boss and say you need 10 of the next 15 days off?
Not excuses, just painting the broad picture of high school athletics, and the environment. I'm not sure coaches understand the cost associated with these summer programs.

[CarpetCleaner]

Bballcoach10 - if I'm wrong about the 10 day rule I will be the 1st to admit it, but I was at an OHSAA administrators meeting and one of the assistant commissioners made a point to make this very clear. 10 days for the program, 7-12. If I can find the link I will post. If I'm wrong I will correct myself.

[bballcoach10]

You are correct it's for "total program". I always interpreted that the way you do until another coach told me I was wrong. I contacted One of the asst commissioners to get the official interpretation in the spring. Turns out we used to be right, but they did in fact change the rule 2 years ago to separate junior high and high school. I suppose that makes sense since its a whole different set of kids. I think the "total program" concept is designed to keep coaches from having freshmen, JV and varsity events and having the talented freshmen do all three or the sophomores do 20 days of instruction between JV and varsity.