488 replies to this topic

[Whiterabbit]

Common Sense, on 14 May 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

What's the status of soccer in A-town? If you add varsity soccer, kiss any chance of success out the windown. Look at the others in the league who've added soccer, VB, Cory, PG. Nothing against soccer, but just can't do it at small schools.

Soccer in Atown in my mind would never happen. Sad to see if true, that it is even a consideration. You can't please everyone one and offer everything in a small school. Go to Findlay if you want more offerings. Set all 3 of those schools back and never recovered.

[jawbreaker]

Common Sense, on 14 May 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

What's the status of soccer in A-town? If you add varsity soccer, kiss any chance of success out the windown. Look at the others in the league who've added soccer, VB, Cory, PG. Nothing against soccer, but just can't do it at small schools.

What do you consider a small school? I think football and soccer can co-exist but it seems like you have to be slightly larger than Cory and PG. Schools like VB shouldn't have a problem doing it (See Ada and Bluffton).

[cropduster]

Its football driven, 5 of the 10 BVC schools won't field of JV football team, you can make your assumption on who those schools are, as to why your bigger schools are looking at forming another league. As far the Arlington thing -i understand the position they haven't been a football power since 1987, and I bet if you do some more checking they have a losing record against several more teams in the BVC since the 87 season

[Common Sense]

jawbreaker, on 14 May 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

What do you consider a small school? I think football and soccer can co-exist but it seems like you have to be slightly larger than Cory and PG. Schools like VB shouldn't have a problem doing it (See Ada and Bluffton).

Small schools really can't do it. As far as VB, Bluffton, Ada, etc. you can have soccer, but it depletes your football team. VB will continue to struggle with a huge golf team, and soccer. There just aren't enough athletes to go around. Now if you are in the camp that wants kids to participate, then fine, VB's got alot of kids who participate in sports. Football's a numbers game and you just can thin the group out that much.

[Common Sense]

cropduster, on 14 May 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

Its football driven, 5 of the 10 BVC schools won't field of JV football team, you can make your assumption on who those schools are, as to why your bigger schools are looking at forming another league. As far the Arlington thing -i understand the position they haven't been a football power since 1987, and I bet if you do some more checking they have a losing record against several more teams in the BVC since the 87 season

See above post

[jawbreaker]

Common Sense, on 14 May 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

Small schools really can't do it. As far as VB, Bluffton, Ada, etc. you can have soccer, but it depletes your football team. VB will continue to struggle with a huge golf team, and soccer. There just aren't enough athletes to go around. Now if you are in the camp that wants kids to participate, then fine, VB's got alot of kids who participate in sports. Football's a numbers game and you just can thin the group out that much.

It is about numbers to a point but lets get real, Ada and Bluffton are good examples that it can can work. Take a further look at Bluffton, we have Cross Country, Soccer and Football, and rarely does the soccer or cc teams have someone that would make a great impact on the football field. Right now the talent isn't there when it comes to football and the record shows that. However, there have been many years that both the football and soccer teams have enjoyed very good records. Throughout the 90s and early 2000s success was found on the football and soccer fields. I don't ever remember losing a game and thinking, if only we had some of those soccer players on the team. We have had some great speed guys that ran cross country but a lot of those guys were not football players and couldn't catch all that well.

At the really small schools, you are right, it doesn't work.

[davidson33]

polkhigh33, on 14 May 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

I wonder if a vote on all this takes place May 23 as scheduled?

Vote is on May 21st..........

[Common Sense]

jawbreaker, on 14 May 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

It is about numbers to a point but lets get real, Ada and Bluffton are good examples that it can can work. Take a further look at Bluffton, we have Cross Country, Soccer and Football, and rarely does the soccer or cc teams have someone that would make a great impact on the football field. Right now the talent isn't there when it comes to football and the record shows that. However, there have been many years that both the football and soccer teams have enjoyed very good records. Throughout the 90s and early 2000s success was found on the football and soccer fields. I don't ever remember losing a game and thinking, if only we had some of those soccer players on the team. We have had some great speed guys that ran cross country but a lot of those guys were not football players and couldn't catch all that well.

At the really small schools, you are right, it doesn't work.

Very true, and this isn't really an Ada, Bluffton thing. LB obviously does all sports well. But I'm saying in general. And let's also think, how many of those 25 Bluffton soccer players would be football players if there wasn't an option? I'd guess half? So there's another 10-15 players, many possible skill position players. Sure, Bluffton's been competitive at football, but any long state tournament runs? Could those 3-4 kids per grade add depth or maybe cause them not to have as many guys go both ways??? Again, there is no right/ wrong here, I'm just saying that if you add soccer (it's nearly impossible to get rid of) AND you are decreasing your chances of being an elite team.

[jawbreaker]

Common Sense, on 14 May 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

Very true, and this isn't really an Ada, Bluffton thing. LB obviously does all sports well. But I'm saying in general. And let's also think, how many of those 25 Bluffton soccer players would be football players if there wasn't an option? I'd guess half? So there's another 10-15 players, many possible skill position players. Sure, Bluffton's been competitive at football, but any long state tournament runs? Could those 3-4 kids per grade add depth or maybe cause them not to have as many guys go both ways??? Again, there is no right/ wrong here, I'm just saying that if you add soccer (it's nearly impossible to get rid of) AND you are decreasing your chances of being an elite team.

I would highly doubt half of the ~30 kids would play football. If they wanted to play football, they would have been on the football team. Elite football teams have elite talent on them and there are very few truly elite football teams. Adding some kids that don't care for the sport and not very talented doesn't make your football team better. Bluffton's last deep run in football was in '91 with a state runner-up and other playoff appearances ending early. Ada has had some deep playoff runs in football and fielded a soccer team. I just see blaming a soccer program for the lack of success at a school the size of VB seems to be the easy explanation and maybe not the correct one.

[Common Sense]

jawbreaker, on 14 May 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

I would highly doubt half of the ~30 kids would play football. If they wanted to play football, they would have been on the football team. Elite football teams have elite talent on them and there are very few truly elite football teams. Adding some kids that don't care for the sport and not very talented doesn't make your football team better. Bluffton's last deep run in football was in '91 with a state runner-up and other playoff appearances ending early. Ada has had some deep playoff runs in football and fielded a soccer team. I just see blaming a soccer program for the lack of success at a school the size of VB seems to be the easy explanation and maybe not the correct one.

I'd guess if there was no soccer, half of the kids would want to do "something". I'm sure not all kids who play soccer "love" soccer. Again, this is just 2-3 kids per class that could make the difference. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming soccer.
Look at it this way, you have a freshman or sophomore, not the most athletic kid, they either A. play freshman or jv football or B. play varsity soccer and letter. They want to letter. Two years later, this kid, as a junior or senior, could be a significant part of the football program as a varsity player, but they finish out soccer, which is fine. I'm just saying this is the difference.
Wasn't it mentioned earlier that 1/2 of the BVC teams won't have jv football? This contributes. And again, not saying it's right or wrong.

[jawbreaker]

Common Sense, on 14 May 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

I'd guess if there was no soccer, half of the kids would want to do "something". I'm sure not all kids who play soccer "love" soccer. Again, this is just 2-3 kids per class that could make the difference. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming soccer.
Look at it this way, you have a freshman or sophomore, not the most athletic kid, they either A. play freshman or jv football or B. play varsity soccer and letter. They want to letter. Two years later, this kid, as a junior or senior, could be a significant part of the football program as a varsity player, but they finish out soccer, which is fine. I'm just saying this is the difference.
Wasn't it mentioned earlier that 1/2 of the BVC teams won't have jv football? This contributes. And again, not saying it's right or wrong.

Like I said before, the really small schools have to pick between fielding a football or a soccer team because the numbers aren't there. At a school like Bluffton, which really isn't big, if you aren't athletic, you won't play varsity football or soccer. You will be stuck on the JV team for either sports. If a kid that really wants to play a sport and your school district doesn't have it, it doesn't take much to find one that does. If there isn't a school district that has the sport you want, there are always club options.

Edited by jawbreaker, 14 May 2012 - 06:08 PM.

[Bruno]

My understanding is PG is dropping soccer for at least 3 years. I don't know how much it will help their football team, with it being a co-ed soccer team, and had a lot of girls.

[Whiterabbit]

This is a another animal for another post (start a post)....BACK TO BVC expansion. Does anyone know when the VOTE is taking place? Coach B, when does Arlington meet with LB?

[Casual_fan]

Hello. Long time lurker. I've got some questions and comments about this whole BVC expansion issue;

1. How is the vote going to work next week. Is there going to be a vote simply on whether or not the BVC should expand followed by discussions and votes on which schools, or is there only to be one vote on expansion and schools. If so, who is deciding which schools? I think a simple vote on expansion would pass, the hard part is which schools shold be part of the mix. It's my understanding that Ada has no interest if H-L or TC are the other school invited. Can enough votes be gotten to admit Ada and NB? Or would there be an attempt to get Ada and a wild card?

2. What happens if two schools are added, say Ada and NB. Then you're adding one Div VI and one Div VII. That means, even if LB plays both VB and Ada, that they would still play at least 6 Div VII schools. What happens if LB misses the playoffs, even with an 8-2 record because of all of the Div VII schools it has to play, especially if those Div VII schools have a sub .500 record in non-conference play. Or if they make the playoffs they end up in the bottom half of the brackets and don't host a first round game?

3. If the rumors posted here are true, and LB and some other schools are looking to leave the BVC isn't expanded, then have they been honest in this stance with the rest of the BVC. At the first meeting in Feb, LB was asked if expansion didn't happen, would they leave the BVC, and one LB representative said yes and another said no. Which is it. If you've now decided to leave the conference if expansion doesn't happen, then be honest about it. And if other schools wish to leave with you, then be honest. To bad we dont' have a newpaper in this county to do some real reporting on what's going on.

4. LB is right to push for expansion. They are going to need it. However, it seems that some of their backers here are upset that not every school is falling all over themselves to expand. Should those schools vote for something that they fell is not in their best interest.

5. I love the comments about Arlington being afraid of competition. It is my understanding that since Coach Vermillion has been at Arlington, both Basketball teams have dropped schools from their schedules that are traditionally noncompetitve in BB and added schools that are. So if this has worked for them in BB, would they be afraid to do it in FB.

6. I agree with PostPlayer, I don't think the LB Should Leave the BVC is as a popular opinion in Arlington as a lot of people here think. Just because a dumb arse like Joe Metzger states it in the opinions section of the Courier, doesnt' mean that even half the people agree with him. Falcon86, which two administrators did you sit next two at the LB track meet. I'd like to ask them about it. There are only 3 or 4 administrators at Arlington, so it should not be too hard to figure it out.

I suspect in the back of my mind that LB looked at moving to a differenct conference and didn't get any warm welcomes from anyone, so now they have to push for expansion. This is simply becuase I cannot figure out why they would want to continue in a conference in which less than half the teams offer them little or no competition. But this seems too simple of a reason.

I think adding a couple of teams to the BVC will do no harm. But I'm not sure that LB will get what it wants with the two additional teams. I think they may have better results by moving to a conference with schools in it's own division, not a conference with 11 schools one or two divisions smaller. At the same time, the BVC will be a worse off with out LB, as they represent the conference well.

[Northwestsports]

Welcome aboard , you make some good points in your first post. I guess we will have to wait and see if anything happens.

Edited by Northwestsports, 15 May 2012 - 10:44 AM.

[PostPlayer]

Casual_fan, on 15 May 2012 - 07:41 AM, said:

Hello. Long time lurker. I've got some questions and comments about this whole BVC expansion issue;

1. How is the vote going to work next week. Is there going to be a vote simply on whether or not the BVC should expand followed by discussions and votes on which schools, or is there only to be one vote on expansion and schools. If so, who is deciding which schools? I think a simple vote on expansion would pass, the hard part is which schools shold be part of the mix. It's my understanding that Ada has no interest if H-L or TC are the other school invited. Can enough votes be gotten to admit Ada and NB? Or would there be an attempt to get Ada and a wild card?

2. What happens if two schools are added, say Ada and NB. Then you're adding one Div VI and one Div VII. That means, even if LB plays both VB and Ada, that they would still play at least 6 Div VII schools. What happens if LB misses the playoffs, even with an 8-2 record because of all of the Div VII schools it has to play, especially if those Div VII schools have a sub .500 record in non-conference play. Or if they make the playoffs they end up in the bottom half of the brackets and don't host a first round game?

3. If the rumors posted here are true, and LB and some other schools are looking to leave the BVC isn't expanded, then have they been honest in this stance with the rest of the BVC. At the first meeting in Feb, LB was asked if expansion didn't happen, would they leave the BVC, and one LB representative said yes and another said no. Which is it. If you've now decided to leave the conference if expansion doesn't happen, then be honest about it. And if other schools wish to leave with you, then be honest. To bad we dont' have a newpaper in this county to do some real reporting on what's going on.

4. LB is right to push for expansion. They are going to need it. However, it seems that some of their backers here are upset that not every school is falling all over themselves to expand. Should those schools vote for something that they fell is not in their best interest.

5. I love the comments about Arlington being afraid of competition. It is my understanding that since Coach Vermillion has been at Arlington, both Basketball teams have dropped schools from their schedules that are traditionally noncompetitve in BB and added schools that are. So if this has worked for them in BB, would they be afraid to do it in FB.

6. I agree with PostPlayer, I don't think the LB Should Leave the BVC is as a popular opinion in Arlington as a lot of people here think. Just because a dumb arse like Joe Metzger states it in the opinions section of the Courier, doesnt' mean that even half the people agree with him. Falcon86, which two administrators did you sit next two at the LB track meet. I'd like to ask them about it. There are only 3 or 4 administrators at Arlington, so it should not be too hard to figure it out.

I suspect in the back of my mind that LB looked at moving to a differenct conference and didn't get any warm welcomes from anyone, so now they have to push for expansion. This is simply becuase I cannot figure out why they would want to continue in a conference in which less than half the teams offer them little or no competition. But this seems too simple of a reason.

I think adding a couple of teams to the BVC will do no harm. But I'm not sure that LB will get what it wants with the two additional teams. I think they may have better results by moving to a conference with schools in it's own division, not a conference with 11 schools one or two divisions smaller. At the same time, the BVC will be a worse off with out LB, as they represent the conference well.

Well stated...and I pretty much agree with your entire post. Regarding the "school administrator" post...all I can say is that I think I have a pretty good pulse on their take...and I stand by my comments that Arlington brass is in favor of making changes once we know what changes are being requested...at this point, no one even knows what the vote is for (add teams, then who? OR expand without knowing?).

[Whiterabbit]

I will do my best to plug in.

1. How is the vote going to work next week. - Don't know would love some inside information.

2. What happens if two schools are added, say Ada and NB. Then you're adding one Div VI and one Div VII. That means, even if LB plays both VB and Ada, that they would still play at least 6 Div VII schools. What happens if LB misses the playoffs, even with an 8-2. Easy, if they miss, they miss. But with additions of some 'bigger' schools they can schedule some non conference games like the rest of the new league to bring in more points. Still better than playing ALL small schools like they do know; I am sure LB appreciates your concern of their playoff hopes.

3. If the rumors posted here are true, and LB and some other schools are looking to leave the BVC isn't expanded, then have they been honest in this stance with the rest of the BVC. - Don't know, but whose to say they (you mention 'other' schools but always lead with "LB"). Maybe none of them at that time even considered leaving league but as writing on the wall; rumors seem to be they have started to look at other options; can't blame them. If this was an issue, maybe each school should have been asked what is OPTION 1, if that fails, OPTION 2, and if that fails OPTION 3 or any other considerations they have indivdually so no feelings of 'dishonesty' would be felt. So maybe no one was being dishonest rather they didn't know at the time.

4. LB is right to push for expansion. They are going to need it. However, it seems that some of their backers here are upset that not every school is falling all over themselves to expand. Should those schools vote for something that they fell is not in their best interest. No absolutely not, each school has to do what is right for themselves; i.e. maybe leave the league. (another LB Lead??)

5. I love the comments about Arlington being afraid of competition. - Arlington has played and continues to play top competition.

6. I agree with PostPlayer, I don't think the LB Should Leave the BVC is as a popular opinion in Arlington as a lot of people here think. Maybe Arlington doesn't want LB to leave; but dislikes them a great deal due to losing them in some sports/not all and blame the 'size' issue of the school as the reason why they win. And that anger gets misinterpreted as leave.....???.

Welcome to the corner.

[Common Sense]

Whiterabbit, on 15 May 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

I will do my best to plug in.
Adding more in green
1. How is the vote going to work next week. - Don't know would love some inside information.

2. What happens if two schools are added, say Ada and NB. Then you're adding one Div VI and one Div VII. That means, even if LB plays both VB and Ada, that they would still play at least 6 Div VII schools. What happens if LB misses the playoffs, even with an 8-2. Easy, if they miss, they miss. But with additions of some 'bigger' schools they can schedule some non conference games like the rest of the new league to bring in more points. Still better than playing ALL small schools like they do know; I am sure LB appreciates your concern of their playoff hopes. No matter who is added, LB is still the big kid on the block, and while it's nice to win 8,9,10 games a year, are you getting ready for the playoffs?

3. If the rumors posted here are true, and LB and some other schools are looking to leave the BVC isn't expanded, then have they been honest in this stance with the rest of the BVC. - Don't know, but whose to say they (you mention 'other' schools but always lead with "LB"). Maybe none of them at that time even considered leaving league but as writing on the wall; rumors seem to be they have started to look at other options; can't blame them. If this was an issue, maybe each school should have been asked what is OPTION 1, if that fails, OPTION 2, and if that fails OPTION 3 or any other considerations they have indivdually so no feelings of 'dishonesty' would be felt. So maybe no one was being dishonest rather they didn't know at the time. Schools are looking out for their own best interest. As slow as these things take, it would be 2 years before any major changes happen.

4. LB is right to push for expansion. They are going to need it. However, it seems that some of their backers here are upset that not every school is falling all over themselves to expand. Should those schools vote for something that they fell is not in their best interest. No absolutely not, each school has to do what is right for themselves; i.e. maybe leave the league. (another LB Lead??) Schools won't leave the league unless it falls apart. Scheduling is much, much easier when in a conference.

5. I love the comments about Arlington being afraid of competition. - Arlington has played and continues to play top competition. I think this stems from the rumor that Arlington is not in favor of expansion, they have a good chance to make the football playoffs as is. Adding HL, Ada or others would change that dynamic.

6. I agree with PostPlayer, I don't think the LB Should Leave the BVC is as a popular opinion in Arlington as a lot of people here think. Maybe Arlington doesn't want LB to leave; but dislikes them a great deal due to losing them in some sports/not all and blame the 'size' issue of the school as the reason why they win. And that anger gets misinterpreted as leave.....???. LB leaving the BVC is a double edged sword for the other schools in the BVC. Obviously, the chances of winning increases if they leave. In general, they dominate the conference in most sports. However, the gates they bring on the road would be sorely missed by most of the league schools. It's typically the biggest gate, or one of the bigger gates of the season.

Welcome to the corner.

[FiredupDevil]

I would have to agree that it is pretty hard on to vote on something when you are there is not a clear choice. What will a yes mean here?

[Whiterabbit]

Common, I think I like your answers better than mine!