411 replies to this topic

[PostPlayer]

Please let this thread end....

[effingA]

Question for you Post... since you've appeared on this thread and Arlington has made the list of approved schools by Dman. Purely conjecture here, but what if the Steiner kid and his family had chosen to move to Arlington ( adjacent districts ), would your team's state appearance be diminished? Would Arlington and Coach Vermillion be any less of a school or person?

The Steiner kid won 6 games in his basketball career at HN before he moved... not high school, in his CAREER including JH,JV, HS! He worked in the off-season to get better but no one else did. Do you blame him for leaving? He would be a better person if he had stayed? Really?

I'm tired of this thread too but I'm more tired of Dman bashing good people and good schools.

I hope the Garber kid goes somewhere and they win state... just for Dman!

[Dman]

Quote

do you really think for one minute that the programs who "puss out and take the easy path" will really give a $hit when they are hoisting that championship trophy

Yes they care. Maybe not in that exact moment. But a day or two later it matters to them. They want social recognition. One need only look at this thread and every other thread broaching this subject to see how much they care. All of these threads inevitably end up with participants who defend transfers begging RM to shut the conversation down. Most the time RM obliges. People that don't care do not get so upset.

I know you "get it" flounder and understand that I'm about the debate...not the personal stuff. But you can see how upset Ada/Elida/LCC/Hiland/etc defenders get EVERY time the truth about how they obtain success is mentioned. They do not think it is FAIR to mention HOW they obtain the trophy. But if you don't mention HOW they obtain the trophy, then you are de facto granting equal respect to the Sherpa assisted mountain climber. No reasonable person can defend such a jaded position. Sherpa assisted climbing is simply not as admirable as those who do it without assistance. This is true by ALL reasonable worldviews.

In lieu of any possible defense of such a misguided position, those who want recognition they have not earned inevitably lash out at the messenger. If they did not care as you suggest...they would simply admit that their accomplishments were of the assisted variety. Can you show me ONE example in the history of RC that a fan of a "transfer" assisted team freely admitted they had "advantages?" Maybe once faced with the inevitability of losing the debate they will reluctantly concede this fact (see BOB at Ada). But in order to reach this simple truth we have to go through the farcical defenses, messenger attacks, etc. People that do NOT care do not take the time and effort to debate a losing argument.

On a side note. Part of the "changing times" is the bastardization of traditional value sets. We have folks on this thread that are sincerley upset at me and willing to take time and effort to say so because I've dare to suggest that Hiland does not win the state championship without their transfer. On the Elida thread they were sincerely upset at me and willing to take time and effort to say so because I dared to suggest that a player should not get out of jail and play in a game IN THE SAME WEEK.

My words are more actionable to these new age liberals than THEIR ACTIONS. I did not steal anything. I did not go to jail. I did not let a kid represent my school less than a week out of jail. I do not mock traditional values like teamwork, loyalty, etc by accepting transfers to take the place of kids who practiced traditional values. Do I need to say more?

Every example above is met with SILENCE by fanatics. But somehow MY WORDS are the catalyst that crosses THEIR value system and inevitably springs them into action. This is the part that is farcical. They want to preach to me, and like-minded individuals about how "out-of-touch" our value systems are... But their very own value systems are so hypocritical and jaded that they believe it acceptable to trumpet censorship for WORDS while simultaneously ignoring ACTIONS. If my words deserve censorship...what might a coach who plays a criminal less than a week out of jail deserve? According to the new age philosophy, I deserve ridicule while the said coach deserves SILENCE.

Their misguided and inconsistent value systems are as easily rebuked as their contentions that winning championships with mercenaries is as admirable as doing it yourself.

[maddog20/20]

So who are you blaming? The school? If the OHSAA says the kids is eligible and allowed to play, pretty sure the school will let them. The coach? If a kid transfers and the OHSAA and the school say he's allowed to play, the coach will play him. The parents? Pretty sure it's the parents right and responsibility to do what they see is in the best interest of their child(ren). If a parent did this for academic reasons or because one school's band program was better than another, would you have a problem with this too? Or do you just have issues with this in terms of athletics?

I don't see the problem being the fact that kids transfer, but rather how they ended up at the school they transferred to.

If School A has a solid basketball program (a coach that has been there for years with no intention of leaving, a solid summer and youth program, a solid coaching staff, double digit winning seasons year in and year out with some tournament success year in and year) and a parent decides to send their kid to this school to have them be a part of the this based solely on the tradition of the school and the benefits their child will have while there, I have no problem with it.

School B on the other hand, actively send coaches/boosters/parents around trying to round up the best possible talent at one school, then we have a problem.

It seems that you are lumping all schools into one pot. Just doesn't seem right, in my opinion.

In terms of the topic, which I'm sure most of us have forgotten after 8 pages of who wins the right way and who doesn't, I feel bad for what is going on in Vanlue. Coach K seems to have been pretty successful and it feels like he's getting a raw deal from the outside looking in. The Garber kid is a really nice player. I wish him nothing but the best, but again feel sorry for him that he is thrown into all this turmoil and uncertainty heading into his senior year. Wish them both the best.

[effingA]

"Losing argument" based solely on your opinion, period. Every school gains an advantage IF a "mercenary" - nice words to describe a kid, can play. Nobody talks about those that don't. You cannot lump ALL transfers into one group and that's what you do. Some have valid reasons they leave their original schools, some don't... we get it. Life is not black and white, and thus this is is not black and white. Each and every situation is different and should be treated as such. You talk about action... get your behind down to the OHSAA at 4080 Roselea Place, Columbus, Ohio and set up shop there. Until then, give it a rest.

Edited by effingA, 30 March 2012 - 02:44 PM.

[Dman]

I've gotten a bit off message...but will try and answer you in a moment maddog.

The main point I make, want to make, and will continue to make is that the accomplishment of winning games/championships is EASIER since "new school" values have flourished. It is simply easier for coaches/players/parents to move around and create super-teams than it is to stay put and be part of program building. Besides the fact that it much easier to plug in a pre-developed talent versus developing that talent locally...there is the fact that at this point in the progression...these "super-teams" are competing against the majority of competition that are still not utilizing modern methods. This would be a bit like a motorcycle rider winning a race against some horses.

The preceding paragraph is simply not arguable. It is much easier to pick/accept pre-developed talent from a limitless pool than it is to develop talent within a limited geographical location. You will not find detractors challenging this argument as to do so is foolish to even the most ill-informed. For example, NOBODY who wants to maintain the most minimal of credibility will argue that Hiland would have won the state championship without their transfer this year. It is just simply indisputable that the modern methods of team building were of such a magnitude that these modern methods themselves were the primary ingredient for Hiland's success.

Nothing I've written above has one ounce of judgement.​ It is nothing but an empirical observation. In other words, I could believe Hiland is the greatest community in the history of mankind...but still have no choice but to acknowledge the truth of how/why they won the state championship. We all have to acknowledge this, or you could choose to put your head in the sand...which is a different debate.

Knowing that all schools in the OHSAA tournament, or individual conferences, etc are not taking the same path...I make the simple observation that winning championships in the "modern era" is not as difficult as it was in the past. As such, I make the opinion that today's champions that utilize modern methods do not deserve the same respect as past champions who did not utilize such extra assistance. Furthermore, I take it a step further and opine that the Arlington's, Jackson Center's, Ottawa's of the world...who are currently riding horses and keeping up with motor cycle riders deserve EXTRA respect.

It is this proceeding paragraph that drives fans of "modern method" teams crazy. For whatever reasons, they seem to believe that their team's accomplishments deserve the same respect and credit as past champions and current traditionalists. I surmise that such a position is not only utterly ridiculous, but it is easily discredited. My evidence is the fact that nobody can or WILL make the argument that their team deserves equal respect. In lieu of their inability to make a persuasive argument, they will attack the messenger, call for censorship, make fun of my school, etc. None of this changes the thought and merit of my argument. In fact, it only proves what I've said multiple times. It is farcical to watch the fanatics in action. Apparently when one is so caught up in their team's accomplishments, they lose the ability to honestly assess how and why their accomplishments are achieved.

By the way...I've still made no judgement (in this response) as to whether these modern methods are right/wrong. I've just illuminated the truth of status quo.

Now I will go ahead and answer your question maddog. You've asked for my opinion/judgement...so I will oblige. Moment to note that I preemptively predict that from this sentence on is where the detractors will concentrate their rebuttals. Unable to dent my non-judgmental descriptions of reality in the preceding paragraphs, their only course of action is to attack my opinions/values...as if their own beliefs are superior to my own.

I blame society for forgetting the purpose of high school athletics. I believe teamwork, effort, loyalty, etc are important values and concepts that should trump winning games. This, as you and so many others suggest is no longer the case. Winning is MORE important than how you win. I do not disagree that most coaches and schools WOULD accept transfers and issue a lot playing time IF they can help WIN GAMES. This phenomenon PROVES that WINNING is the most important value (the only value?) in modern society. I believe that there is STILL a lot of good lessons to be learned from traditional values in which the means used to achieve success is MORE IMPORTANT than the trophy. If I was coaching, I would rather lose EVERY game than have a kid out of jail play on my team less than one week later. To me the lesson of morality and following society's rules are MORE IMPORTANT than winning ANY games.

I could go on...but the proceeding paragraph gives good indication of my beliefs/value system and WHO I blame...as you asked. Here is the funny part. I don't care or ask you (generic you not maddog) to agree with MY value system. Just as I don't care about your own. You want to believe that playing a kid out of jail less than a week is a "good" thing...be my guest. Make that argument. My opinions, your opinions, are not really that important...and we will never agree.

That said...none of our opinions changes the FACT that Hiland does not win their championship without a transfer. Elida does not get to Columbus without allowing a criminal to represent their school, etc. You can believe these examples and many others are wrong as the Devil or right as Jesus Christ. It simply does not matter.

But the truth in ALL of these types of examples is that such methods make the path to championships much easier. Most normal wired human beings have ALWAYS respected those who chose a more difficult path a lot more than those that take shortcuts. It is not that those that take shortcuts are "bad" or "wrong." They simply chose an easier path. The straight A student who takes calculus and physics is not the same as the straight A student who take Math II. One simply deserves and demands more respect by virtue of the path taken.

Edited by Dman, 30 March 2012 - 03:31 PM.

[effingA]

And so now you dismiss a kid's effort in Math II as not being as important as a kid in Calculus... but you're not being judgemental. Right.

4080 Roselea ....

Edited by effingA, 30 March 2012 - 05:31 PM.

[Dman]

effingA, on 30 March 2012 - 05:30 PM, said:

And so now you dismiss a kid's effort in Math II as not being as important as a kid in Calculus... but you're not being judgemental. Right.

The effort may be equal. The accomplishment is not. There is a difference. One is a more difficult path that deserves and demands greater respect.

If the logic of your argument is that it is wrong to judge...I surmise a sports forum is not the place for you. In fact, every part of life is but a dull existence for she who finds equivalency where none exists.

By the false logic that "judgement is wrong" the victor in the parking lot 3 on 3 game is worthy of equal respect to those who compete organizationally. While attendance at high school games are assuredly on the decline, it is prudent to assume that society's judgement of organized basketball still trumps the sand lot.

Moment to note that my preemptive prediction in the prior post has proven 100% correct. There will be no discussion about how Hiland/Elida could have made Columbus without their "modern methods.". Just typical messenger/values based conjecture. The substance of the argument stands on it's merit.

Edited by Dman, 31 March 2012 - 12:05 PM.

[effingA]

By who's standard is the accomplishment not the same? That "logic" devalues many people's accomplishments.

The validity of an argument does not guarantee a truthful conclusion. You can argue using false premises, which I beleive you use, and have a valid argument. Doesn't mean what you say is true - just valid. Two different things.

[falconfan84]

effinga....you need to quit arguing with Dman...your not winning. Dman has done nothing but present the truth of the matter. I agree with 100% of what he has posted in this thread.

The problem with this whole scenario is that in a generation or two, Dman and I will be gone from this world, and society will be one or two generations further removed from proper values/morals/ ethics. The hole we're digging just keeps getting deeper. A couple generations ago, transfers and all-star teams would have been ridiculed much more than they currently are. Society just keeps accepting this type of thing as "normal" or "acceptable".

Edited by falconfan84, 31 March 2012 - 07:18 PM.

[von]

Dman, your responses are too long, cut them down, too much information, we get your point. You do NOT like transfers to other schools. What school is your main squeeze? You never reveled that info..

[PostPlayer]

effingA, on 30 March 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:

Question for you Post... since you've appeared on this thread and Arlington has made the list of approved schools by Dman. Purely conjecture here, but what if the Steiner kid and his family had chosen to move to Arlington ( adjacent districts ), would your team's state appearance be diminished? Would Arlington and Coach Vermillion be any less of a school or person?

The Steiner kid won 6 games in his basketball career at HN before he moved... not high school, in his CAREER including JH,JV, HS! He worked in the off-season to get better but no one else did. Do you blame him for leaving? He would be a better person if he had stayed? Really?

I'm tired of this thread too but I'm more tired of Dman bashing good people and good schools.

I hope the Garber kid goes somewhere and they win state... just for Dman!

Of course not - all schools/fans will accept good players into their program, even if they are clearly moving in for the benefit of sports. I am on the fence - love to have them, but it also opens you up to criticism of which is hard to deflect.

Garber will do what's right for him, and whomever gets him will be pretty darn happy in the end. However, I think all of us would agree that if a state championship is a result such a move-in, many will look at the trophy a little differently - at least on the outside - and rightfully so.

[flounder]

falconfan84, on 31 March 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

effinga....you need to quit arguing with Dman...your not winning. Dman has done nothing but present the truth of the matter. I agree with 100% of what he has posted in this thread.

The problem with this whole scenario is that in a generation or two, Dman and I will be gone from this world, and society will be one or two generations further removed from proper values/morals/ ethics. The hole we're digging just keeps getting deeper. A couple generations ago, transfers and all-star teams would have been ridiculed much more than they currently are. Society just keeps accepting this type of thing as "normal" or "acceptable".

This is a great post.....exactly how I feel!!!!!!!!!

[flounder]

von, on 31 March 2012 - 11:43 PM, said:

Dman, your responses are too long, cut them down, too much information, we get your point. You do NOT like transfers to other schools. What school is your main squeeze? You never reveled that info..

This is also a great post.....I would expect nothing less from my friend von!!!!!

[slice slice baby]

von, on 31 March 2012 - 11:43 PM, said:

Dman, . What school is your main squeeze? You never reveled that info..

Delphos Jefferson

[slice slice baby]

HH75, on 27 March 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

Maybe we need an LB thread so we can talk about The Lue?

+1

[paperboy]

Dman, on 30 March 2012 - 03:28 PM, said:

For example, NOBODY who wants to maintain the most minimal of credibility will argue that Hiland would have won the state championship without their transfer this year.

I have no idea if Hiland could have won the state title without the transfer, but I'm certainly not convinced that you are 'credible' in stating the 'fact' that they could not have.

I also have a question for you that I brought up in another thread (hell, maybe it was five pages ago in this one) but I never got an answer...If a local high school power that has won multiple state titles in the past decade did so a couple times with an open-enroller from another district, is that school and its titles automatically tainted in your eyes?

[Putnam County Lady]

Dman I recall Jefferson's Basketball Coach was going to transfer his all-son to CG if he got the head coaching job. That was almost just a year ago.
I soon we forget.

[Dman]

Lucky for Grove neither the coach or player was good enough for them. I expect huge accomplishments from Grove the next four seasons...with all that talent and system continuation. My hunch is their prior experience with the transfer route has left a sour taste...

I root for Delphos Jefferson. I am against any and all athletic transfers that do not benefit Delphos Jefferson. Should we be lucky enough to obtain one of these fine academic transfers...moment to note that Jefferson is a higher rated academic institution than Vanlue...then by all means our accomplishments should be judged differently than an Arlington circa 2012. My hunch is we don't need to hold our breath...

[Dman]

effingA, on 31 March 2012 - 01:03 PM, said:

By who's standard is the accomplishment not the same? That "logic" devalues many people's accomplishments.

As stated in the post you responded to...society makes that judgement. One need only look at declining attendance, partcularly for teams who consistently utilize transfers to ascertain that folks interested in watching manufactured teams is on the decline.

There is nothing wrong with devaluing accomplishments. If you ride your bike and win a marathon over a runner...society will devalue your accomplishment. Now you have the right to pretend that bicycling your way to marathon victory is a worthy accomplishment. But you don't have the right to expect others to think as highly of you as you think of yourself. You also have no right to censor others from illuminating the fact you used a bicycle to win a running race.