411 replies to this topic

[falconfan84]

Actually know the facts??...when I worked with someone whose son went to school with Mealer? I worked with this guy for years...I don't think he would make up this stuff.

I wish I could always make my posts as eloquent as Dman is. I may not come across the same way, but I have to agree 100% with what he is saying regarding this topic. I'm sure my school has had at least one person transfer in, and most definitely more than a few transfer out. My posts aren't because of any "jealousy" though.

effingA says, "Garber wants to come to your school but the school says "no" because someone on Rocketcorner says it's not "traditional". To me it shouldn't have to be the school saying "no", it should be the OHSAA saying "no". The main reason (like I said earlier) that we see this option for public schools is because they said it wasn't fair compared to what the Catholic or private schools could do to bring in talent. You know what?...they were right. But to turn around and try to do something very similar as the privates doesn't make it right, does it? How is this fair to the schools that don't have any transfers? It's pretty much the same thing isn't it?



It's like two bratty kids fighting in front of their Mom saying, "it's not fair, you're letting Bobby do it", then the Mom caves in and says, "OK, here you go, are you happy now?", when all along the kids should be put in their place and not be allowed to do what they were doing anyways. THIS is the changing society we're all having to get used to, but everybody is blind to it...sometimes because they end up getting spoiled a little too much instead of doing without.

Edited by falconfan84, 26 March 2012 - 08:47 PM.

[Falcon86]

falconfan84, on 25 March 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

Umm....Aaron C. was a move-in from Fostoria (D2 school at that time). Nice try, though.

I've heard the story (from an L-B parent) of how Aaron was quite the hot-shot in his younger years in a Toledo area youth basketball league (AAU, or something like that). He played for a Fostoria team. Everybody knew he was the best player in that age group. Turns out, the following year, Aaron's Dad brings him into a 5th grade practice at L-B, and says Aaron is coming to school at L-B. I'm pretty sure there was some thought on the parents' part with bringing him to L-B...and I bet the exposure to L-B's team at the Toledo league had a little bit to do with it also. You can't tell me that these parents don't have a plan sometimes...it doesn't always have to happen between 8th and 9th grade. The earlier you move, the less it looks like a transfer.

I had the opportunity to talk with John Craft (father of Brandon, Aaron, and Caite). He is a teacher at Fostoria and knew years ago that the education being offered at Fostoria was declining. He loves the kids there but knew that his kids would get a better education elsewhere. He said sports had little to do with their decision. C'mon Aaron was in the 4th grade at this point....you don't pick upend move a 4th grader for sports. For a better education, yes! They considered Findlay Schools but did not like the size. LB's school system was highly rated at the time.

Now, if I knew my kids could potentially play for a coach like Steve Williman then that would play a role in my decision. Not for a future in basketball, but a future in life. I am willing to bet if you ask Brandon Craft about life lessons he would tell you that what Williman did for him to prepare him to go to Afghanistan was well worth it. Brandon was deployed on Saturday for Afghanistan. God Bless him and all of our troops!

Another point missed in these posts is the number of kids that are moving into the LB district that are not athletes. You ask the parents of these kids why they move in or open enroll it is for education. LB has an excellent reputation. But if a kid moves in and happens to be an athlete it is recruiting!?!?!?!? Check enrollment numbers- non athlete enrollment is growing at a faster rate than new athlete enrollment. With the growth of AAU sports it doesn't matter where you play school sports. Winning a state championship does not get you a scholarship. The kids that win state championships AND are getting money for school are the same kids that are putting time in AAU sports in the summer.

I know this is a Vanlue thread but had to offer my 2 cents.

[Falcon86]

falconfan84, on 25 March 2012 - 10:08 PM, said:

.......... Also, it was quite coincidental that there were a set of sisters that (for one year) went to Findlay for older sis to play, then when she graduates, younger sis comes back to L-B to play for them. What's up with that?

Check your facts on this one.....lil sis did not want to move to Findlay when parents got divorced. Lil sis was miserable at Findlay, not having anything to do with sports........when big sis graduated the opportunity presented itself that she could move back to LB with her friends. This decision was not driven by basketball. In fact I think she even considered not playing basketball but she was good lifelong friends with the Hyde girl and she decided to play.

Now the Ramsey girl was a move in and as I commented on another thread, her move to LB had to do more with issues at Van Buren than moving to a different program. Now, if I am going to play basketball in high school I would have to consider playing for Newlove at Arlington or Irwin at LB. Her mom actually considered Arlington but liked the LB fit. Sounds like a similar situation that Garber may be in. If he moves it won't be because he is being recruited but because the situation at his current school stinks!

I have seen the Garber kid interacting with other kids from other schools and I think he is well liked so if he moves it ay be because he likes the classmates as well as the coach. Good luck to him.

[Bluetiger76]

Falcon86, on 26 March 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

Check your facts on this one.....lil sis did not want to move to Findlay when parents got divorced. Lil sis was miserable at Findlay, not having anything to do with sports........when big sis graduated the opportunity presented itself that she could move back to LB with her friends. This decision was not driven by basketball. In fact I think she even considered not playing basketball but she was good lifelong friends with the Hyde girl and she decided to play.

Now the Ramsey girl was a move in and as I commented on another thread, her move to LB had to do more with issues at Van Buren than moving to a different program. Now, if I am going to play basketball in high school I would have to consider playing for Newlove at Arlington or Irwin at LB. Her mom actually considered Arlington but liked the LB fit. Sounds like a similar situation that Garber may be in. If he moves it won't be because he is being recruited but because the situation at his current school stinks!

I have seen the Garber kid interacting with other kids from other schools and I think he is well liked so if he moves it ay be because he likes the classmates as well as the coach. Good luck to him.

Good posts Falcon86 (concise, accurate, etc.)........ Falcon84, not so much.

[falconfan84]

All good, Falcon86. I don't mean to sound like a hater toward these kids. The Craft kids all seem like very decent people. And while I admit I wasn't too impressed with my small amount of exposure to him while he was a high school BB player, I have to say that he is AMAZING on the defensive end of the court for the Buckeyes. The young man seems to have his head fastened securely watching the way he carries himself on the floor. I've heard nothing but good about Aaron as a person and player. I have heard stories in the past that he had quite a bit of pressure from Dad on the sidelines. His initial signing to Tennessee was supposedly a way for Aaron to "get away" from that influence, I was told. I really don't know much on that one...just what I had heard.

I don't think you can take every kid or parent and lump them together in the same basket. Each case is different, but many have the same motives. Along the spectrum of reasons that kids move or transfer, I'm sure there are some "gray" areas that some of us will question the motives. Other times, it appears blatantly obvious what is going on. O.J. Mayo might be a good example of a kid with tremendous talent that got "placement" on teams that maybe he shouldn't have. I believe Mayo played varsity basketball in Kentucky his 8th grade year (because Kentucky rules allow that), then gets to play in Ohio with an "elite" team for four more? How do these things happen if the parents aren't moving with legitimate job changes, family reasons, or whatever? It seems the greater the talent, the more these kids get catered to. It would be hard to grow up humble the way these kids are treated as superstars. I think we see far too often the kind of "role models" that many of these fine athletes grow up to be. I don't think it would hurt for our kids to have a good dose of humility as part of their daily diets. We'd see a positive change in society, and REAL role models as a result.

[falconfan84]

Falcon86, on 26 March 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

Check your facts on this one.....lil sis did not want to move to Findlay when parents got divorced. Lil sis was miserable at Findlay, not having anything to do with sports........when big sis graduated the opportunity presented itself that she could move back to LB with her friends. This decision was not driven by basketball. In fact I think she even considered not playing basketball but she was good lifelong friends with the Hyde girl and she decided to play.

Now the Ramsey girl was a move in and as I commented on another thread, her move to LB had to do more with issues at Van Buren than moving to a different program. Now, if I am going to play basketball in high school I would have to consider playing for Newlove at Arlington or Irwin at LB. Her mom actually considered Arlington but liked the LB fit. Sounds like a similar situation that Garber may be in. If he moves it won't be because he is being recruited but because the situation at his current school stinks!

I have seen the Garber kid interacting with other kids from other schools and I think he is well liked so if he moves it ay be because he likes the classmates as well as the coach. Good luck to him.

Well, if that's the case, then I'll admit I there was more than meets the eye. I never had any "facts" to check on this (I don't believe I made that statement), just stating what appeared to be an "alignment of the planets" that year for the Lady Eagles.

[paperboy]

falconfan84, on 26 March 2012 - 11:15 PM, said:

Well, if that's the case, then I'll admit I there was more than meets the eye. I never had any "facts" to check on this (I don't believe I made that statement), just stating what appeared to be an "alignment of the planets" that year for the Lady Eagles.

Not picking on you, but this is the reason so many 'fanatics' on here get a wee bit defensive when they see misinformation about transfers.

I've got another example: The public school that I follow gets a lot of open-enrollers from a neighboring school district. Some have played on recent state championship teams of ours but I have yet to see anything on this or any other message board about our school 'benefitting from transfers'.

The thing is, though, such a topic could be started and it would be perfectly truthful - but it really wouldn't be accurate. You see, the neighboring district is much larger and the kids that are open-enrolling into our district live in a small town that is actually closer to our school and much more equivalent as far as the culture goes. Also, the larger district closed down an elementary school in the small town and alienated many of the people there, thus the mass exodus. All of our local rival schools know this is going on but nobody says a peep because they know the open-enrollers are legitimate (i.e. not transferring for sports reasons).

However, if the statistics were to be mentioned on here ("XYZ school has had x number of open-enrollers from ABC school, and look at how many state titles XYZ has won") there would be plenty of wrong-headed conjecture about my school not doing things the 'traditional' way.

So there - I'll get defensive from time to time because I DON'T KNOW what is exactly going on in these other schools (Hiland, Elida, Liberty Benton, etc) and I'd like to balance out the posts of those who automatically cry foul.

Edited by paperboy, 27 March 2012 - 12:07 AM.

[von]

falconfan84, on 26 March 2012 - 11:15 PM, said:

Well, if that's the case, then I'll admit I there was more than meets the eye. I never had any "facts" to check on this (I don't believe I made that statement), just stating what appeared to be an "alignment of the planets" that year for the Lady Eagles.

Tell the young man to go to LB or Putnam County. Good Luck...

[paynepanthers]

http://education.ohi...&Content=116390

This links to the Ohio Department Education - Open Enrollment Master list. From this list 77.71% of Ohio public schools offer either adjacent or statewide open enrollment. (64.01% offer statewide, 13.7% offer adjacent as of December 2011)

Edited by paynepanthers, 27 March 2012 - 10:15 AM.

[veteranlefty]

Another example of this happening in NW Ohio in Bellevue where Santoro family has two kids (boy and a girl) who are really good athletes and they are rumored to be "moving" to Clyde for their senior years (they must be twins as I think both are seniors). The girl is a really good basketball player who would be joining on of the premier teams in NW Ohio girls basketball and may be the missing ingredient to push them to a state title as they already have a superstar in coach's daughter who will be a junior and is D1 talent. The boy is a multi-sport star in football and hoops, played QB and point guard as a junior. I am sure he will help an already good football program at Clyde with his speed and athleticism. I do not have all the facts on this and am not sure why it may happen other than to provide the kids with a better situation athletically. Someone may know more about this one.

[tfloangel]

Dman, on 26 March 2012 - 10:14 AM, said:

For me personally, this argument does not make sense. I don't believe ANYBODY should blame the kids. I sometimes question the adults around programs, but even that is tongue in cheek. The part that is a bit farcical is to watch fan reaction to these transfer situations. Hiland is a perfect example. The simple truth is that Hiland does not make Columbus this year, let alone win it, without the transfer. That is the truth without judgement. But if Hiland fan is like everybody else's fans (see Ada, Elida, etc) the mere mention of this reality leads to comical defense mechanisms. It is as if the "fanatic" part of fan makes it impossible to accept and admit this truth.

The ways and means Arlington/Jackson Center used to achieve their successes this year are NOT the same as Hiland. While I'm certain traditional means to success such as hard work, talent, etc are a part of both programs, and certainly worthy of respect...it is unrealistic to ask any objective observer to look at both situations in the same light. Had the same transfer went to either of the other two programs, we are talking about a different state champion today.

To minimize the absolute importance that even ONE transfer contributes to a team's success is the proverbial dunking of head into the sand. This case is exhibit A of that reality. More important than hard work, talent, coaching, etc was transferring. This does not mean that Hiland did not have plenty of the former...they did. But without the latter, it was not enough. One need only look to Arlington and Jackson Center to see that truth. It is this final truth that appears so difficult to accept for fans close to the situation. They still want to wrongly assert that the traditional means of hard work, team work, coaching, talent are THE only reason(s) they achieve their success. This is not reality no matter how many messengers they attack or straw men they construct.

I'm not trying to make excuses, I'm simply pointing out that that one poster was incorrect. In fact, I've stated on other web sites that I've had moments when I've honestly wished that these kids have not transferred in, because that automatically makes us evil and horrible and ruins our tradition for everyone who does not have transfers. I don't even argue it on the case of, well, we win so it's okay in my book. When we had a transfer on the girls side, while we got to state, we didn't win it, and I firmly believe we would have gotten there without her. The reason why I choose to be okay with it is because they are two of the coolest kids you could ever hope to meet, so its hard to fault them for the way it casts in a different light what were two very solid programs before they ever came along.

Tradition breeds success because others see it and want to aspire to it. Every home grown kid saw someone growing up they wanted to emulate, so they worked their tails off trying to achieve it. And we have two of the best coaching staffs in the state.

"More important than hard work, talent, coaching, etc was transferring." Why does it have to be? I get it - you hate Hiland (and so Vanlue, and Elida and whoever else) because they don't do things the RIGHT way, which is the way your school does it. Why does it have to completely overshadow in your minds the things that they do right? You say to not blame the players, which is good, but should our coaches have said "no" when the players approached them after their sophomore seasons? "Nope, sorry, can't come play for me because it won't make my program look good."
I have all the respect for the coach's who argue that they'd rather lose with their kids than win with a transfer, but if that transfer came to them, would they really say no?

[flounder]

tfloangel, on 27 March 2012 - 01:31 PM, said:

I'm not trying to make excuses, I'm simply pointing out that that one poster was incorrect. In fact, I've stated on other web sites that I've had moments when I've honestly wished that these kids have not transferred in, because that automatically makes us evil and horrible and ruins our tradition for everyone who does not have transfers. I don't even argue it on the case of, well, we win so it's okay in my book. When we had a transfer on the girls side, while we got to state, we didn't win it, and I firmly believe we would have gotten there without her. The reason why I choose to be okay with it is because they are two of the coolest kids you could ever hope to meet, so its hard to fault them for the way it casts in a different light what were two very solid programs before they ever came along.

Tradition breeds success because others see it and want to aspire to it. Every home grown kid saw someone growing up they wanted to emulate, so they worked their tails off trying to achieve it. And we have two of the best coaching staffs in the state.

"More important than hard work, talent, coaching, etc was transferring." Why does it have to be? I get it - you hate Hiland (and so Vanlue, and Elida and whoever else) because they don't do things the RIGHT way, which is the way your school does it. Why does it have to completely overshadow in your minds the things that they do right? You say to not blame the players, which is good, but should our coaches have said "no" when the players approached them after their sophomore seasons? "Nope, sorry, can't come play for me because it won't make my program look good."
I have all the respect for the coach's who argue that they'd rather lose with their kids than win with a transfer, but if that transfer came to them, would they really say no?

tflo........

I like Hiland!!!!!!

[tfloangel]

Yea, I know you and Rocket do. (Although, that didn't stop you from rooting for the other guys last weekend - don't think I didn't notice ) J/k. I totally understand. I just felt the need to respond when something was stated that was clearly inaccurate, and then dman accused me of burying my head in the sand, which couldn't be further from the truth. As the only Hiland poster on here, who else could he mean?

[cubbies4life]

Northwestsports, on 26 March 2012 - 07:23 PM, said:

I'm not sure cubbie but I get the feeling rocket has a dislike for the Evil Empire over here in West Findlay. He makes me laugh when gets on LB.

Been a little lean out in his neck of the woods in Putnam County. It's the evil empire's fault.

[Bobby]

I don't blame schools for accepting transfers. Why shouldn't they accept them? I also don't blame kids for wanting to do better. From what I'm reading on this site, most people seem to be just fine with kids transferring for athletic reasons. BUT, a few months ago LCC was basically kicked out of the NWC because they had transfers. These are kids who wanted to better themselves, same as Bonifant from Hiland. You can't have it both ways. If it's okay for athletes to transfer to Hiland, Elida, Wapak, Ottoville, Lincolnview, Dunbar, Van Wert, etc..., then it's okay for athletes to transfer to LCC, DSJ, Lehman Catholic, etc... Unfortunately, there are competitive balance proposals and separate tournament proposals seeking to punish all private schools for "crimes" very few are guilty of. "Crimes" that just as many, if not more, public schools are guilty of, yet public schools aren't the focus of the proposals.

Hiland fans, you've walked a few hundred yards in our shoes. The accusations and comments about your team are what private schools experience on a daily basis. Stinks, doesn't it?

[Ericles]

veteranlefty, on 27 March 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

Another example of this happening in NW Ohio in Bellevue where Santoro family has two kids (boy and a girl) who are really good athletes and they are rumored to be "moving" to Clyde for their senior years (they must be twins as I think both are seniors). The girl is a really good basketball player who would be joining on of the premier teams in NW Ohio girls basketball and may be the missing ingredient to push them to a state title as they already have a superstar in coach's daughter who will be a junior and is D1 talent. The boy is a multi-sport star in football and hoops, played QB and point guard as a junior. I am sure he will help an already good football program at Clyde with his speed and athleticism. I do not have all the facts on this and am not sure why it may happen other than to provide the kids with a better situation athletically. Someone may know more about this one.

The boy will be a senior and the girl will be a sophomore.

[FiredupDevil]

As Brett Musburger once said "As long as they're keeping score, someone is trying to get the best athlete that puts more points on the board than the other guy."

[Dman]

Quote

I get it - you hate Hiland (and so Vanlue, and Elida and whoever else) because they don't do things the RIGHT way

Fabricate much?


This quote would be a second good example of what I mean when I say the part that is a bit farcical is to watch fan reaction to these transfer situations.

This is what I've said about Hiland.

• The simple truth is that Hiland does not make Columbus this year, let alone win it, without the transfer. That is the truth without judgement.

​
From this simple statement, Hiland fan...like so many before him is left with barren discourse. There is not a simple soul alive with the most minimal of basketball knowledge that believes Hiland would have made Columbus this year without their transfer. Somehow, to the farcical fanatic the mere mention of this truth is interpreted as hate. The mere fact that one's attachment to a situation affects such fantasy is hilarious. All ability to sustain impartiality/objectivity is forfeited.

This returns to the two types/definitions of tradition prevalent in all transfer deliberation. First there is the traditional means of achieving athletic success. Second there is the traditional respect awarded to those who win. Those who benefit from circumventing the traditional means of obtaining success are the first to invoke traditional respect/accolade/praise toward their own accomplishments. This is the proverbial definition of "having your cake and eating it too." Without taking a side, it is easy to see that one cannot have it both ways. Yet that is exactly what we get every time this debate ensues. Hiland fan responds no differently than Ada, LCC, Elida, etc. They want all the glamour and glory of traditional respect but refuse to pay homage to ANY traditional means/methods. The hypocrisy of these dual positions is laughable to any reasonable/objective mind.

[Dman]

Quote

You say to not blame the players, which is good, but should our coaches have said "no" when the players approached them after their sophomore seasons? "Nope, sorry, can't come play for me because it won't make my program look good."

That seems like a reasonable response to a coach and program that values traditional means. I cannot confirm it, but I've been told multiple times from multiple sources that this is exactly what Dick Kortokrax has done to many kids who have wanted to transfer there over the years. Maybe somebody closer to that program could respond.

But even if it is not true...what would be wrong with a coach saying no? There is no right to play basketball ANYWHERE. Coaches play who they want and sit who they want...for many different types of reasons. There is certainly no constitutional authority that says a coach has to play a transfer. The school may have to accept the student...but that does not insure playing time, or even the right to make the team.

[Dman]

Quote

I have all the respect for the coach's who argue that they'd rather lose with their kids than win with a transfer

Me too... That is all I've ever argued. Programs/coaches who utilize traditional means to achieve success in this non-traditional society deserve more respect... There is a large gap between saying this this and "hate."

For whatever reason, fans of programs who do not utilize traditional means to achieve their success tend to over-react when somebody points out this perfectly reasonable reality. I save traditional respect for those who utilize traditional means Nowhere in my hours of discussions on this topic will you find me arguing that Hiland's/Ada's/Elida's/Dunbar's/etc of the world...deserve NO respect whatsoever. I've got a fond place in my heart for many of these teams and the very kids that transferred themselves. It just does not reach the traditional level I have for Arlington, Jackson Center, Ottawa, etc.