27 replies to this topic

[Rooney]

Things are awfully slow in the baseball forum, so I would like to chat with anybody who reads this. I would especially like to hear your opinion - Procell - as you seem to have some knowledge of the WBL and PCL along with the NWC teams (Which I too am most familiar). What dictates success/ earns your respect / why are these programs usually successful? In a Perfect world what 3/4 teams would you select if you had a son of high school age and could send them to any school. ( Not looking for beating the proverbial "Recruiting" dead horse in this topic please) Is it because of the younger "feeder" programs are doing it right? - Defiance comes to mind. How do small schools survive the numbers game? That would be a lack of players for a JV and//or Freshman teams. There surely has to be a vast number of reasons for the success as well as failure. What do you readers think?

Maybe its just as the talking heads at ESPN and Fox Sports are saying : playing baseball has lost its ability to attract the athletes because it hasn't really kept up with other major sports in this day and age .

[FanMan]

I would say Tom Held at 1...no question. Jim McBride at Kalida #2. Held really seems to have a way to keep the younger kids interested...and not just because they win. He knows the kids in the junior high program and puts in a lot of time and effort with them in the off-season. With McBride not living in Kalida, it's tough to do that, but he still manages to get a lot of wins out of a group of kids that live in a "basketball town".

[dhsdawg06]

For Defiance, it all starts with the feeder leagues. We have a great program from T-ball to boys league to little league. Lots of interest, and everyone does a great job in getting and keeping the kids interested in the sport. The results clearly show up in the high school program. Add in the fact that we've had 2 great coaches in the last few decades(Inselmann, Held), and you have a dynasty in the WBL and a great program that's known and respected statewide.

[Exo4life]

I would say Jason Brandt at Wapak has really started to turn the program around. The class of Seniors that graduated in the spring was the first class to really have any serious travel ball. The younger programs are on the rise. It sounds like the redskins will have a lot in the tank for the next couple years.

[MACster]

Coldwater has some deep tradition that many schools in Ohio can't touch.

5 State Titles, 3 State Runner-Ups
18 Regional Titles
24 District Titles
26 MAC titles

[Rooney]

For Defiance, it all starts with the feeder leagues. We have a great program from T-ball to boys league to little league. Lots of interest, and everyone does a great job in getting and keeping the kids interested in the sport. The results clearly show up in the high school program. Add in the fact that we've had 2 great coaches in the last few decades(Inselmann, Held), and you have a dynasty in the WBL and a great program that's known and respected statewide.

It has been my observation over the years of watching different games that : 1) The Coach ( see Held,McBride,Inselman as examples ) get too much credit... just as he doesn't get enough because he is expected to win consistently year after year ( Held for example ) 2) Some coaches' just have that certain something that makes people want to play for him and his program. Maybe why I started this discussion is to say that any of the listed coaches' above and others as well not yet mentioned have the success because of Player Talent, Coach Longevity = success and assistant coaches in the program be it Jv,pony league,little league or t-ball.

[Rooney]

Coldwater has some deep tradition that many schools in Ohio can't touch.

5 State Titles, 3 State Runner-Ups
18 Regional Titles
24 District Titles
26 MAC titles

This is a good example of what I am getting at : Coach Brunswick definitely set the standard not in this area but the whole state. Those in charge in cavalier country expect this level of play. Is it because of the teaching in the younger grades? Something else to consider - not to diminish anything that Coldwater has done but I really find it fascinating that small schools ( like your New Knoxville basketball teams recently) that barely have 60-70 boys in the entire high school ( see also Miller City, Kalida, Delphos St John's) can be competitive each and every year/ I think this is what is fascinating about northwest & west central Ohio high school baseball tams as well as football,basketball.track and so on.

[dhsdawg06]

It has been my observation over the years of watching different games that : 1) The Coach ( see Held,McBride,Inselman as examples ) get too much credit... just as he doesn't get enough because he is expected to win consistently year after year ( Held for example ) 2) Some coaches' just have that certain something that makes people want to play for him and his program. Maybe why I started this discussion is to say that any of the listed coaches' above and others as well not yet mentioned have the success because of Player Talent, Coach Longevity = success and assistant coaches in the program be it Jv,pony league,little league or t-ball.

All great points.

Inselmann really was the driving force behind baseball in Defiance though. Not that they were terrible before he took over in 1981, but they weren't near on the level they are now. The program had never won 20 games in a season. In the 7 years they'd spent in the WBL, they only had 1 league title. Just 4 sectional titles and 1 district title in nearly 80 seasons of baseball. Greg Inselmann really turned things around majorly. There's been 21 sectional, 13 district, 3 regional, 1 state, and 20 WBL titles since 1982 now.

Held obviously came into a great situation. When he got here the tradition was set, the feeder system was well in place, all he's really had to do is keep it up. And he's done a great job of that. But you're right, there are times he gets too much credit for the job he's done(not all that hard to win with the talent he's had) and times he doesn't get enough(still hard to maintain the level of excellence we've seen for 25 years or so). Personally, I see some of the teams he's coached as underachievers. How we didn't win a state title with either Billingsley or Niese is beyond me. But he obviously knows what he's doing in developing pitchers.

[pcrocket]

All great points.

Inselmann really was the driving force behind baseball in Defiance though. Not that they were terrible before he took over in 1981, but they weren't near on the level they are now. The program had never won 20 games in a season. In the 7 years they'd spent in the WBL, they only had 1 league title. Just 4 sectional titles and 1 district title in nearly 80 seasons of baseball. Greg Inselmann really turned things around majorly. There's been 21 sectional, 13 district, 3 regional, 1 state, and 20 WBL titles since 1982 now.

Held obviously came into a great situation. When he got here the tradition was set, the feeder system was well in place, all he's really had to do is keep it up. And he's done a great job of that. But you're right, there are times he gets too much credit for the job he's done(not all that hard to win with the talent he's had) and times he doesn't get enough(still hard to maintain the level of excellence we've seen for 25 years or so). Personally, I see some of the teams he's coached as underachievers. How we didn't win a state title with either Billingsley or Niese is beyond me. But he obviously knows what he's doing in developing pitchers.

It's hard to win a state championship in any sport, but I think baseball may be one of the toughest. If I remember correctly, Defiance was beaten 1-0 or 2-1 when Billingsley pitched (@ state). You can't play the game for the kids. You install a system, you work it to perfection, and that is exactly what Tom Held has done. Anyone questioning his ability to produce is really oblivious (in my opinion).

Edited by pcrocket, 06 September 2010 - 09:51 PM.

[trevally]

It's hard to win a state championship in any sport, but I think baseball may be one of the toughest. If I remember correctly, Defiance was beaten 1-0 or 2-1 when Billingsley pitched (@ state). You can't play the game for the kids. You install a system, you work it to perfection, and that is exactly what Tom Held has done. Anyone questioning his ability to produce is really oblivious (in my opinion).

If I remember correctly the team that went to state in Billingsley's junior year lost to the eventual state champion Tallmadge when Chad grooved a fastball and the Tallmadge catcher knocked it around 390 feet over the left-center field wall and DHS lost 1-0. That catcher had not homered all season. This past season the Jonathan Alder pitcher kept the DHS hitters off balance by mixing in a great many curve balls which DHS hitters always struggle to hit. If anything, it has been a lack of offense in regionals and state that have cost the Bulldogs several possible state championships. Tom Held is a fine coach who is second to none at teaching pitching and defense.

[Rooney]

If you had to put a label on a coach what would that be?
For instance:
A lot of talk on here is about Tom Held - my label would be pitching knowledge and organization from all that I have heard and seen ( very limited )
Greg Inselman- Hitting & fielding fundamentals and organization at all levels ( Ohio Baseball Hall of Fame says it all here)
Dan Kern- cerebral / baseball mind ( also in Ohio Baseball Hall of Fame )
Lou Brunswick- Also in Hall of Fame- pretty much set the standard by which all coaches' and programs are measured not just at Coldwater.
Thoughts?

[Procell]

I hadn't paid any attention to this posting until today...interesting thread.

What makes a good program? Stability.

Tom Held, Defiance has stability.
Mark Thompson, Elida had stability even though they had some rough years...they had stability...great fundamentals coach!
Troy's Frosty Brown...wow...longevity/stability...loves the game.
Brandt at Wapak, teaches fundamentals...great involvement with younger groups.
Spencer, Shawnee...fundamental, fun, stable, has genuine interest in the kids even after they leave the program.
Brunswick, Coldwater...what can I add to what he brought to the table???
Halamert, Coldwater...has the stability, teaches the fundamentals.

Now what is it that tears programs apart??? Parents who believe at any level that they know more than the Varsity coach because they coached the boys at a lower level.
Parents have an undefeated year or two with a little league team...when they all get to HS there are many factors that go into whether or not certain kids even continue to play into HS years...but then at HS they are .500 or worse for some reason.
Could be they lost players to eligiblity, move out of district, could be the league they now play in has changed...
BUT
The little coach believes they should still be 'undefeated'. No body takes into consideration that maybe the opposing players have caught up to where the other boys were at in athletic ability.

Another thing that tears programs up. Travel baseball.
If you are going to do TRUE travel baseball get on an all star type of a team. Don't try to take all the boys from a school to do travel ball. What happens is that someone or a group of kids get left out of the team that is put together and then that kid or group of kids just figures they aren't good enough and quit playing the game.

How many times to you see not just in baseball, but basketball, where kids have quit at a young age and then they develop later on and you can't get them to come out and play because they were "cut" when they were younger...

Travel teams are a fun avenue...but they can be very detrimental to building a program.

How many Dwight Goodens could have been playing in Piqua, Troy, or for those in NW Ohio...Lima Senior???? How many kids walk the halls there that could play baseball, but don't because football is king, or basketball is king????

I think you see it all too often...the 6'6" kid walking the halls that wasn't good enough when he was in 4th/5th or 6th grades...but grew over time but lost his interest in sports because of over zealous dads who needed to win now...and wanted to pick the varsity team as 4th/5th and 6th graders where it doesn't mean anything.

The biggest detriments to sports...Parents and travel ball done the wrong way.

The biggest factors in successful programs...Stability, coaches who are involved at all levels below Varsity, parents who know their roles and stay out of the way.

[Rooney]

Interesting points Procell. When I look at your examples of stability etc. you have mentioned several coaches' who haven't been a Head coach for very long yet they are "elite". Is this because they inherited a program in an already winning situation : i.e. Held... then you list the Shawnee,Wapak, Coldwater coaches' that may not have 20 years of head coaching experience between the three of them as to having the stability and other intangibles to run a successful & winning program. Yet along with Held at Defiance they all have stepped into programs that have already had it. Not saying they haven't earned some respect for what they have done. I'll give an example: as I recall the Shawnee coach has only been a head coach a few years - yet he gains a special mention by you.
After reading numerous posts of yours- you are in the know about PCL & NWC teams and yet none of those programs get mentioned by you in your response about success,stability and so on. It's not that I don't disagree with what you have said thus far ... it's what you haven't.

[dhsdawg06]

The other thing to remember with Held(and one of the biggest reasons I respect him) is that he won big at Bryan before coming to Defiance as well. Not sure if he built the program up there or inherited a good one, but this makes 2 programs he's won at. So it's not like he lucked into the Defiance job and then took off from there. He earned the chance to coach here, and has continued the tradition.

[Procell]

Rooney...Halamert at Coldwater has been there 10 years or more at least...
Spencer has been at Shawnee for about 10 years...granted some of that as JV coach...but look at resume...ONU pitching coach...head Coach at other HS (can't remember where)...played at prominent DIII...I don't think you are knocking any of that...but he brings stability to that program...he didn't inherit a program that wins year in year out...he turned that program around.

Thompson at Elida had been there over 20 years...granted he inherited a pretty good program and he took it up a few notches as well.

Putnam county schools...Dan Kern at Miller City brought stability/fundamentals/and was a winner...a few state titles if memory recalls.
McBride at Kalida...I have KNOWN some people that like to rip on him from time to time...I on the other hand like what he has done there at Kalida...again stability...fundamentals...all he does there is win...even when he is "expected to have a down year...he wins.

Tony Castranova at Ottoville...some tried to run him out from what I heard this past year...but thankfully the administration/board voted to keep him on. Fundamentally sound coach...that is stable and for a small school produces winners.
I think Darrin (last name eludes me) at Leipsic is another...he inherited a good program from Coach Miller...he has done alot of good things with it and brings stability as well.

What is it that you are looking for Rooney?

Let's talk about stable for a program...Jim Morris at Lima Sr.
Wow...had absolutely no talent to start with...maybe just 1 or 2 athletes...he has stayed with a program that is on life support. He took a group of kids from 7th/8th grade and has hung with them I think the majority are either Jr's or Sr's now. They have made Lima Sr. very respectable over the last couple of years. Jim teaches fundamental baseball...his biggest battle is that there are no youth programs for Lima Sr...how do you develop a program into a winner when there is no feeder program/jr. high program to boot.
This guy is going to be a catch for another school someday if he ever decides to leave Lima Senior...

Piqua had a super coach for years in Rick Gold who now assists at Wittenberg. Also brought stability...
others not mentioned outside of the Putnam county area...
Frosty Brown Troy...mentioned.
Tim Saunders...Dublin Coffman
Bruce Boley...Celina...now retired.
John Dorner...St. Henry...stability and just a few state titles.
Trent Dues...Vandalia Butler

I only know what I know, and who I know...these guys are all winners....they all have that stability.

[Procell]

Is there a particular coach or school you want to discuss?

[white_shadow]

Darren Henry is the name you are looking for at Leipsic, Procell.

Pretty good analysis of all of the above in my opinion. My opinion of some of them may vary slightly, but for the most part I think you got it right. One in particular that I absolutely agree on is Jimmy Morris. That program was in absolute disarray before his arrival and like you mention, he has brought them up to at least respectibility. I agree that its gonna be tough to maintain with the lack of youth programs but he has done an excellent job up to this point.

[Rooney]

Is there a particular coach or school you want to discuss?

First off, I apologize for being wrong on the years as a head coach for two of those coaches'. I knew the Shawnee coach was just a few years in...he has a good pedrigree and apparently his successes have carried over into the program.
Not really searching for any one program or name just a general consensus of area programs. Two additional programs to possibly discuss would be Crestview and LCC out of the NWC and you pretty much hit all of the PCL. I feel that Columbus Grove can be competitive but not in two leagues -if they just played in the PCL they might be better than a .500 team most years. Also, at a Ottawa Legion game this summer I was talking to a couple of people and they heard the Ottoville situation is a couple of parents with agendas. Kalida's coach does seem find ways to win when his teams are average or rebuilding- interesting to hear he too is not highly thought of. It reminds me of 2004 when I was in the Varsity Club after OG boys just won the state basketball title with the Pollitz boys and several OG fans were less than complimentary to Dave Sweet...was told that the assistant coaches' were the reason they won and they could have won coaching that team.
I find myself thinking just who do these people think they are?
If I had a son playing now any of the coaches' that we have named in these posts could coach my kid because I can reasonably say that:
1. They Win
2. The game is taught at fundamental levels
3. The kids want to play for them

[Rooney]

Darren Henry is the name you are looking for at Leipsic, Procell.

Pretty good analysis of all of the above in my opinion. My opinion of some of them may vary slightly, but for the most part I think you got it right. One in particular that I absolutely agree on is Jimmy Morris. That program was in absolute disarray before his arrival and like you mention, he has brought them up to at least respectibility. I agree that its gonna be tough to maintain with the lack of youth programs but he has done an excellent job up to this point.

"My opinion of some of them vary slightly"... For the sake of discussion and not looking to rip on anybody -what is your opinion ? It's probably just as good or better than mine.

[Procell]

I like Crestview's coach Jim Wharton alot! He is a class guy and runs a class program. He is at or near the top of the NWC alot...his teams are fundamentaly sound...and even in his supposed "down years" he seems to be able to get the guys to over achieve and excel.

LCC's coach John Schnieders...to be real honest...when he first came on the scene I wasn't real sure about him. I don't know why I didn't mention either one of these guys early, but John is another guy that given the time has brought stability to the program there...is a consistent winner and promotes his guys on to the next level...it appears that the kids like playing for him and that is always a huge plus.

Having to play in two leagues as Columbus Grove does...I can see where it hurts from a pitching stand point...if you don't have the arms you have to pick what league your ace is going to throw...and then try to compete in that league...so I agree with you there...the years that they have had pitching they didn't have a problem competing in either league.

Another coach that totally slipped my mind and one that I think should get mentioned...Phil Krouscup from Perry. I know alot of people think Perry baseball??? Hey, remember back in the day when Perry was dominant in the NWC??? Remember when Phil had them in the running for league titles...sect. and district titles...and then he kicked the door down and made it to state??? I think they played Sidney Lehman in a state final game. Phil was a throw back too...he did things the old fashioned way...pitching, defense, and the greatest of these is small ball!!! He would bunt you to death...he would bunt you until you proved you could get him out...then he would let his guys swing...and when they swung the bats...they had balls off the wall and out of the park.

Another one that slipped my mind...Denny Fuge...Spencerville...coached someone by the name of Steve Meyer the current GM of the Lima team in the collegiate league.

Yea, my kids could play for any of those coaches Rooney...all of them are good guys...classy guys...running classy programs.